The sad f#$%ing truth

[minx]

these long treatises remind me of the unibomber manifesto

[minx]

can we please get back to climate change?

[billcoe]

Well, I appreciate you sticking up for him: because you are Dons friend, you are willing to give him a pass where so many times someone just shows up with a "whooo hoooo" for some amazing feat, and Don just pisses on their parade for no apparent reason?

 

Sorry guy, he may not be an old, nasty, angry curmudgeon, but he plays one well on the net! I'd still tie in with him or have a beer with him, cause I suspect what Matt says about internet communication and the problems therein are doubly applicable here.

 

And thats the Sad F&*king truth.

 

(Opps, now I went and responded.)

 

 

[olyclimber]

pope, it is my observation while you and Dwayner hold perfectly legitimate opinions, you're calling the kettle black in this post, to implement the over used expression.

 

you inevitably respond with the same tired crap

 

i haven't seen a new argument, i see the same clownish posts (in fact, often including clown pictures). that isn't to say there is a new argument or needs to be. you and dwayner's position on the matter is quite clear, and it hardly needs more explaining. you could just refer to the volumes of posts that have been made where your opinion is stated over and over again.

 

and it must be frustrating to have your opinion drug through the dirt, time after time. the bolt (BLT) war discussion almost never fails to generate pages of animated discussion featuring pictures of clowns and sandwiches, and almost never ends on a respectful note.

 

so perhaps if you have something to say when you see a post that features a new bolt you disagree with, or a tactic employed that disagrees with your particular chosen style of climbing. try saying it respectfully. the pictures of clown and acidic commentary don't really help your cause. i'm not saying to necessarily expect respect from the rest of the users because of the history you and dwayner have with the board. but maybe you can turn the tide, and you can win hearts and minds instead of attracting contempt.

 

i have complete respect for your point of view, even if i might not agree with it %100 of the time. but i think most (but not all) of the contemptible disagreements happen AFTER you lose respect for the person at the other keyboard.

 

so if you truly want to have a conversation about your point of view, first you need to recognize and respect that others might not agree with it. you aren't going to win their hearts and minds be suggesting they are clowns, even if they are acting like them. for instance, in your post above you call on Bill and Off to stop being negative...yet how negative is your post? how are you different from Bill other than you own your own personal trademarked CORRECT OPINION.

 

 

[billcoe]

ONE MORE THING:

 

You do have it wrong on me, no not the asshole part, thats true enough. About the bolts.

_______________________________________________________________

 

I'm doing a route list for a friend (new area which has been secret, that is going to ease into the public domain and consciousness soon). Before the first route gets noted, I start out the list with these exact words:

 

"There are multiple top ropes throughout the area, some of which are described and some of which are not. Please do not think that just because there are not bolts stuck in a face, that by putting in bolts you are doing a FA. You are not. What you are doing is sticking bolts into an area which intentionally did not have bolts in it by earlier climbers. This was left that way for a reason by those who were here first. If you plan on putting in bolts in opposition and disagreement to what all the previous climbers who have and continue to climb here thought or think, plan on having your new bolts removed.

 

 

Described from West to East

 

Hummingbird Wall and Hummingbird Terrace: Hummingbird Wall is located at the West end of the climbing area, just before the trail drops 10' and crosses the garbage drop zone. When climbing in this area, note that many Skamania County locals have been coming and scavenging the former garbage dump here for over 30 years, so be careful not to drop or knock off rocks or big sticks unless you are sure you are alone and that non-climbers, who have no awareness at all that you may be perched invisibly up high, are not present. Because of the shockingly easy routes in the area, the ledge area intentionally did not have gym climbing style bolted anchors put in or any fixed anchors AT ALL. You MUST ascent to the top to get off. This was done so that young climbers could get a feel for what a real climb might entail, and have an opportunity to learn how to build a multi-pitch gear anchor at the base of the upper climbs. It is requested that future climbers leave the ledge this way to maintain that feeling. If you disagree with that philosophy, thats fine, but please go renew your gym membership and stay home. Very small pro is mandatory for the anchors. Topping out is thus mandatory, and a great way to end the day to access cars and top out, as well as the ledge just being a nice place to hang out and enjoy the day or have lunch. First the lower routes L-R, then the upper routes will be described. "

 

 

 

These were my words above, I prefaced it with what I believe. We all do what we can. I think that I totally agree with what Don prefaced his book - and these are his words, quoted verbatim from his book.

 

"The people who object most strongly to anything, I have found, are those who believe that there is only one way of thinking, and that way is their own."

 

I did that after I saw both Joseph, and later I, had the same conundrum: which was that we cleaned off and toproped great lines on face routes next to gear routes. Now what? Hmmm. We left them alone, not wanting to put in gratuitous bolts and fully expected some gym climber would show up at later, add rapbolts after toproping it themselves to claim a FA, and change the head of the area for future climbers. Thought that this solved it. I have asked that anyone who has toproped a climb in this area submit it as a toproped FA, I have like 5 routes like that which various people want to leave alone so far. 2 are mine and one is JH's. Not far away is another cliff which was extensivly rap bolted. The ethics are different and it's all good. I did some ground up FA's there 25 years ago and they got lost to history, forgotten and- or rap bolted. Still a good place to hang for a bit and get some rock in. They both are, but they are different for sure. Different head, different gig. All good.

 

Oh, the cleaning stuff is very involved work and usually done on rap so as to not get killed by loose rocks. Here's a before pic. The dotted line proposed new route. The rope was a friends, to the right of the rope I'd onsight ground up lead that earlier with gear chewing on dirt and moss all the way. There was a group of onlookers hanging around to pick up the pieces in case I greased and the few partial #2 ballnut placements pulled like they appear to want to do. For the route on the right, after I lowered down off that tree there, they all went up it and each successive ascent they all cleaned out a new handhold or placement, so the route got cleaner and easier simultaneously. Good times.

 

and the after pic.

 

That's my wide ass up there.

 

But please re-read Dons sentence which I agree with and lifted directly from his book (very well written book I'll add: excellent!)

[mattp]

There's plenty of room to start up a climate change thread, Minx.

 

Meanwhile I'll comment on a tiny bit of what Pope wrote to say that the history of climbing in Washington shows that bolt wars have more often threatened access than bolting practices themseslves. One climbing area is closed because a guy who disliked sport bolting tried to enlist land managers/owners on "his side" (the Omak Reservation), and similar efforts were attempted at three more other areas that I know of and in at least one case there was real danger that the area might have been closed as a result. There was five years ago some fear that bolting on one route that shall remain nameless might jeopardize access in a broader area but it was not the land managers who brought up the issue in the first place and they are happy NOT to be faced with any ongoing problem or need for enforcement. Their budgets are strapped and they have other more important things to spend money and staff resources on.

 

This doesn't suggest that bolting practices are not important, or that they have not ever caused access issues. It also does not address the obvious fact sport climbing areas can become very popular overnight and this can generate a whole host of problems and we could argue for weeks over whether your favorite crack climb at Index caused way more environmental destruction than any of the routes on "sport wall."

 

Mr. Pope has some good points here, as Dawg did earlier in the thread, but despite my bad mouthing our beloved Cascades and this incredible website I'd like to throw in my vote for being a little careful about what we assert as "truth" or whatever.

[Bug]

pope, it is my observation while you and Dwayner hold perfectly legitimate opinions, you're calling the kettle black in this post, to implement the over used expression.

 

you inevitably respond with the same tired crap

 

i haven't seen a new argument, i see the same clownish posts (in fact, often including clown pictures). that isn't to say there is a new argument or needs to be. you and dwayner's position on the matter is quite clear, and it hardly needs more explaining. you could just refer to the volumes of posts that have been made where your opinion is stated over and over again.

 

and it must be frustrating to have your opinion drug through the dirt, time after time. the bolt (BLT) war discussion almost never fails to generate pages of animated discussion featuring pictures of clowns and sandwiches, and almost never ends on a respectful note.

 

so perhaps if you have something to say when you see a post that features a new bolt you disagree with, or a tactic employed that disagrees with your particular chosen style of climbing. try saying it respectfully. the pictures of clown and acidic commentary don't really help your cause. i'm not saying to necessarily expect respect from the rest of the users because of the history you and dwayner have with the board. but maybe you can turn the tide, and you can win hearts and minds instead of attracting contempt.

 

i have complete respect for your point of view, even if i might not agree with it %100 of the time. but i think most (but not all) of the contemptible disagreements happen AFTER you lose respect for the person at the other keyboard.

 

so if you truly want to have a conversation about your point of view, first you need to recognize and respect that others might not agree with it. you aren't going to win their hearts and minds be suggesting they are clowns, even if they are acting like them. for instance, in your post above you call on Bill and Off to stop being negative...yet how negative is your post? how are you different from Bill other than you own your own personal trademarked CORRECT OPINION.

 

See there?

 

You agree with me about the tone of this site afterall.

 

Right on brother!

[minx]

matt, i just wanted it to stop. even climate change is better than this!

[billcoe]

No Minx, these are honest, heartfelt, discussions with substance and climbing related.

 

Besides that, theres already plenty of shit to go talk on other threads:-) Show of hands now, who has posted a climbing pic on spray today!

 

Come on, show of hands!

 

[olyclimber]

See there?

 

You agree with me about the tone of this site afterall.

 

Right on brother!

 

i prefer to talk about the things i like about the site then spend too much time on what is "wrong with it". too often the solutions would result in real or perceived censorship, calling on our moderators to work magic or work over time, or even tearing the heart and soul from the site. it has gotten to where it is be being what it is. its not for everyone, but i know a lot of people love the site for what it is.

[minx]

but bill, if its climbing related, surely it doesn't belong in spray right?

[billcoe]

Ohhh Minx, a reverse thread move? Thats hot!

[mattp]

Porter: are you saying that you don't even want to consider whether there is anything that you as site owners or we as moderators should or might do to influence the tone of discussions around here? I don't think that is what you are saying, but your post in and of itself seems to suggest this. My own thinking is that the site is really very good as it is, that it could be even better, and that we can and almost certainly will evolve in one way or another.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Porter: are you saying that you don't even want to consider whether there is anything that you as site owners or we as moderators can or might do to influence the tone of discussions around here? I don't think that is what you are saying, but your post in and of itself seems to suggest this. My own thinking is that the site is really very good as it is, that it could be even better, and that we can and almost certainly will evolve in one way or another.

 

at least Seahawks stopped posting

[minx]

Ohhh Minx, a reverse thread move? Thats hot!

 

don't make me do it! i could. i would. i am!

[minx]

i've got to go with porter on this one.

 

honestly, we've burried spray pretty far. most of the other forums don't see too much spray anymore. in order to revive cc.com's tarnished reputation amongst climbers that can't deal w/spray. we'd have to start w/a new site.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

can we please get back to climate change?

 

bolting/climate change - inconvenient truths?

[olyclimber]

Porter: are you saying that you don't even want to consider whether there is anything that you as site owners or we as moderators should or might do to influence the tone of discussions around here? I don't think that is what you are saying, but your post in and of itself seems to suggest this. My own thinking is that the site is really very good as it is, that it could be even better, and that we can and almost certainly will evolve in one way or another.

 

nope. but if it is posted in spray i might spray about it! its anissue i think about everyday.

[minx]

can we please get back to climate change?

 

bolting/climate change - inconvenient truths?

 

i find bolts to be convenient.

 

perhaps they are the cause of climate change?

[rob]

i've got to go with porter on this one.

 

honestly, we've burried spray pretty far. most of the other forums don't see too much spray anymore. in order to revive cc.com's tarnished reputation amongst climbers that can't deal w/spray. we'd have to start w/a new site.

 

I don't see why people bitch about spray, but keep posting there.

 

Incidentally, I hope nobody is using my spray link. MINE

[KaskadskyjKozak]

can we please get back to climate change?

 

bolting/climate change - inconvenient truths?

 

i find bolts to be convenient.

 

perhaps they are the cause of climate change?

 

or climate changes cause bolts? new, smooth exposed glacial rock? which came first the chicken or the egg?

[RuMR]

Dawg, you sound like such a sad and bitter person yearning for those days in your youth when climbing made you feel special, it breaks my heart. I mean it, it bums me out.

....

 

Thats exactly what I was thinking! Except my heart isn't broken at all though, I could give a rats ass about that part.

 

Ok, Don bums me for some other undefined reason. Maybe it's his unreasonable and extreme stance on bolts.

 

Here's a message for my extremely hip sport-climbin' buddies Mr. Off White and Mr. B. Coe. Starting with OW. Because my buddy Fairweather says you're a good guy, and because he's an excellent judge of character, I'm gonna give you a chance to demonstrate such qualities on this board (or we can go climbing). So far, I haven't been impressed with the way you been treatin' my good buddy Dwayner.

 

Now for Bill (and some of this applies to OW). You seem like an educated guy. Yet, when me an' Dwayner encourage our rock climbing brothers to take it easy with the drill, in the interest of preserving rock climbing as somewhat of a wilderness activity, in the interest of being gentle on the medium, you inevitably respond with the same tired crap, attempting to dismiss the ideas as not contemporary and therefore invalid. You do this by asserting that Dwayner's interest in this issue is motivated purely by nostalgia and contempt for anything new and different.

 

Fact is, good ideas are timeless. And you two are a little too old to be worried about what's fashionable. We all know what bolts bring to climbing: greater safety, steeper learning curve, metalic trash on the rock, increased traffic, more inexperienced climbers using their gear to get up cliffs that are probably too hard for them (where they can drop 'biners on you), access issues, the change of our mind-sets to favor convenience and safety over challenge, courage and accepting limitations (thus the increasing number of bolted cracks). And general laziness.

 

Outside of metalic trails of trash, there are many ways sport climbing has impacted rock climbing. Most are arguably negative. And I think you know this, otherwise you'd make some attempt to discuss these issues. Instead, all we get out of you is some incredibly sophomoric attempts to shift attention away from this issues and attack my friend's character.

 

Guess what......I know Dwayner better than most of ya. He's a close friend. His opposition to excessive bolting is not motivated by a resentment of growing old or of new ideas. Instead, I believe he's motivated by a deep respect for the beauty and adventure found in climbing mountains.

 

You, Mr. B. Coe, probably already know this. If Dwayner bums you out, it's because you're behaving like a jackass and defending something that you know is pathetic. Makes me curious about what motivates you. A need to feel young, by sparkin' a bowl while your buddies hang-dog a little 5.10 Smith Rock climb right next to some cute girls who are probably young enough to be your children? Is that why you like this nonsense? Or is it because you always told yourself you could climb a 5.11, and now, with a bolt by your foot, knee and shoulder you can just French free your way up it? Ain't sport climbing great?

 

BTW, once again OW, I'm waiting to see what Fairweather's talking about. Mr. Coe, your'e just an asshole so don't bother responding.

yeah...we know how you like to treat your buddy, dwanus... insert appropriate emoticon here...

[mattp]

I don't see why people bitch about spray, but keep posting there.

 

Incidentally, I hope nobody is using my spray link. MINE

 

I don't see why guys who say "its all good in spray" get so worried when somebody in a spray thread says that somebody else could be nicer about how they make a point and we'd be better for it.

[rob]

I don't see why people bitch about spray, but keep posting there.

 

Incidentally, I hope nobody is using my spray link. MINE

 

I don't see why guys who say "its all good in spray" get so worried when somebody in a spray thread says that somebody else could be nicer about how they make a point and we'd be better for it.

 

You've been using my link, haven't you

[minx]

don't make me move this to the cafe you two!