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Yossarian

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I really want to beat my chest about something in this thread, but I have nothing really important to say (as usual) and will clip any bolt on any climb anytime-anywhere. Hitting the ground hurts too much not to.

If you had any 'real' balls you would remove those bolts on lead. I mean you don't want to gain the moniker "RAP CHOPPER" do ya??????

Mike

P.S. I know who placed the bolts on the 10b next to dogleg crack....what gives homey????

You guys are wierd. smile.gif

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Ray,

Is this not your original comments about DDD? What gives? Why don't you just leave it be?

"DDD route is bolted but oh well I guess that is what happens when the thing sees a handful ascents in 15 years (or

so I hear). Apparently someone decided they wanted to climb it and be somewhat safe about it. Not to argue that

I agree with bolting it because I feel in the middle about it. Face it, now it is a great line that will be climbed by

more than a handful in the next 15 yrs. Doh !! Let me see hit the deck for some climb or be safe they must have

thought. I think the arrogance and machismo was downgraded on one half of me to be honest. The other side says

damn there are plenty of other routes to get on too.

As far as overbolting I dont think it falls into this category myself. If you dont like it go chop em. To call it Bolt

Mania may be a little overboard too?"

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 05-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by slaphappy (edited 07-05-2001).]

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I believe that the DDD rap-bolters will be "formerly-respected" PNW climbers when there names become known. I am offended by the bolts on DDD. I top-roped the route many years ago and thought that I would like to be good enough to lead it someday. Today I am. Not because I can climb any better than I could then, but because it has been "chopped" down to level that I and many others can deal with. This does not make it more valuable. I believe it is now of less value. I am in favor of chopping DDD. Any scars left would be less offensive than the new bolts. I have chopped routes before and will happily take part in chopping this one if Caveman can use my help.

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Now I don't want to get off on a rant here but,

Does ethical creep equal justification?

Maybe the first ascentionist is on board with the sport climbing scene these days (purely conjecture on my part,I don't know).

The point is this: People, like Kurt Smith for example, used to embrace the ground-up traditionalist ethic. Now, Kurt makes a living from developing a south of the border limestone area where virtually every route is a sport route. Would he be against retro-bolting, probably not. So, do the opinions of the "majority" of climbers, a "majority" which was weened into climbing on sport routes, a "majority" which embraced a style that was directly responsible for their participation in the first place, matter at all? To me, no they don't. It's ethical creep in the worst way. Mine is an elitist attitude for sure, but SO FUCKING WHAT! I fall off trad routes that I'd cruise if there was a line of shiny hangers, and I'm a better climber for it. Laugh if you want, but the only place this road is leading is to massive proliferation of bolts. Goddamnit, we're turning into the French!

Asking the first ascentionist is one step (and I applaud anyone for taking that step), but far from the end of the line. "Hey Kurt, should I retro-bolt XYZ, tons of people will climb it and think you were the shit for leading it on gear, boost your rep and ego." Equally important should be the question "Can it be toproped?" If yes, then there is no question...DON'T BOLT IT. Some ballsy young developing trad climber lost a step in his/her progression because of those bolts. Should we care? Hell yes, because there aren't any damn bolt ladders sport pitches on the new challenges of the greater ranges and there shouldn't be. Want to learn to lead safely? Go to the gym, pre-place the gear, or get on something well below your limit PERIOD.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.....

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How many bolts were placed on DDD in how long of a climb? Did they replace shaky pins or nasty rp placements or what?

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slapneck,

Read my previous comments on this thread..... Retro I got a newer better idea than chopping send me a message and I'll tell you hahahahha. No further comments from me here I have made up my mind. You guys can keep discussin it though..........

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this thread is an all time classic. where is its like today? fruit.gif 2001: the Golden Age of Spray when Jurassic reptiles like mikeadam still posted regularly. Bring on more battlecage and less moderation. boxing_smiley.gifboxing_smiley.gif

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So what was the resolution to this issue of rap anchors at Snow Creek wall? Did DDD get chopped? What was the idea that came to Cavey as he was driving back from Index?

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Dru said:

this thread is an all time classic. where is its like today? fruit.gif 2001: the Golden Age of Spray when Jurassic reptiles like mikeadam still posted regularly. Bring on more battlecage and less moderation. boxing_smiley.gifboxing_smiley.gif

 

And nary a Traskism to be seen..............

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So whatever happened to mikeadam anyway? Did he simply get bored with cc.com, or does he live on under another name.

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it is rumoured he is shooting Iraqi and eating MRE right now.

 

hey Mike if you are over there dont get killed thumbs_up.gif

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catbirdseat said:

So what was the resolution to this issue of rap anchors at Snow Creek wall? Did DDD get chopped? What was the idea that came to Cavey as he was driving back from Index?

 

Coles Notes Version:

Retro, Cavey and Will Strickland did the deed and restored it to gear route status. The first bolt was a 1/2" job that may still be there half chopped? Particular of note is that Strickland, after making posts on this thread that seemed less than 100% in favour of chopping, drove all the way up from Portland to help out with the crowbar action.

 

There used to be a pictrure of Retro and the Love Bar on the Alpinelite.com front page. It might still be there in the Index somewhere. Actually there's a whole other thread about the chopping on this site somewhere. Do a search. bigdrink.gif

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slaphappy said:

Are you going to call the "first ascentionist" and ask him if it's cool to chop the route that was recently retroed? I believe the bolters did before they drilled. I also heard they asked publicly for comments before doing it. You don't even know who they are! (Falsely accusing people seems to be a habit from some!) You should certainly talk to them before any action is taken, as Victor suggested.<BR>I do not think you should chop the bolts on DDD! <BR><p>[This message has been edited by slaphappy (edited 07-03-2001).]

 

Yes, I think the guys who "improved" DDD had good intentions and did discuss it with friends. One of them informed me that of all the people they talked to, only two objected to retro-bolting DDD. I objected as did my buddy Tommy. Apparently, they discussed the project with people who were mostly sympathetic.

 

If they had truly opened the project to public discussion (say on a bulletin board or whatever), they probably wouldn't have gone through all of the trouble.

 

What I found to be most objectionable about it was that Catle Rock seemed like a place that was thoroughly climbed out, with numerous high-quality lines that have a sense of history and that are largely free of shiny fixed hardware. The bolting of DDD seemed like an open invitation to climbers to start bolting anything they wanted on Castle Rock (just because it was a little dirty, or just because they couldn't handle the lack of easy gear).

 

There is so much bolt clipping to be done in Leavenworth these days. Maybe we could allow Castle Rock to be spared of these "improvements".

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Dru said:

this thread is an all time classic. where is its like today? fruit.gif 2001: the Golden Age of Spray when Jurassic reptiles like mikeadam still posted regularly. Bring on more battlecage and less moderation. boxing_smiley.gifboxing_smiley.gif

 

This is a classic. Everyone fighting and all. I notice there are no gratuitous snaffelhound posts, huh Dru. wink.gif Maybe we've all become lazy; more interested in snaf.gif than fighting. boxing_smiley.gifboxing_smiley.gif

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yeah it was before the discovery of the squirrel gremlin. way back when men were men, chicks were chicks and Dwayner was Donna Top Step.

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Dru said:

 

There used to be a pictrure of Retro and the Love Bar on the Alpinelite.com front page. It might still be there in the Index somewhere. Actually there's a whole other thread about the chopping on this site somewhere. Do a search. bigdrink.gif

 

check it out! The wayback machine comes through!

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