Crazy Permit Fines

[spotly]

I'd agree. If you break the law, pay up. I think some judges take it as a personal afront when you argue the logic of the law after-the-fact. That's what lawyers do all the time though. Us "ignorant" little people tend not to get away with it. Still sucks that he felt the need to raise the fine - that was a dick thing to do.

[billcoe]

Damn, it's clear now you should have just said you were a meth head in search of cars to break into.

 

You would have walked away with a tsk tsk tsk from the man, as they don't seem to do jack shit to those assholes.

[AlpineK]

The only time I stood in front of a judge he said something like, "You guys are a bunch of idiots," I responded with, "Yes sir your honor I totally agree," In the end we had to pay a fine, but after 6 months it was off my record which was a very good thing.

 

It's been a few years since then, and now it's just a funny story.

[dt_3pin]

Damn, that sucks balls.

 

Who was the Judge? That'd be good beta for folks who find themselves in the same situation.

Edited October 3, 2007 by dt_3pin

[Bug]

Bummer dude.

Meanwhile, if your car gets broken into while you are in there "there is nothing that can be done" even if you have pictures of the a holes doing it.

But, on the other hand, we could be living in North Korea or Utah and in need of a beer.

Pass the hat at Ropeup. I'll put in a dolla.

[selkirk]

Damn, it's clear now you should have just said you were a meth head in search of cars to break into.

 

 

That's half the issue. Most judges attitudes and perceptions aren't based on reasonably lawfully peoples behaviours but on meth heads, dead-beat dad, and other drains on society. And there is very little they hate more than people who they percieve to have a sense of entitlement, or that somehow because your special the law shouldn't apply to you. (Mrs. Selkirk is in the federal justice system and has many of the same opinions) When they are actually trying to rehab criminals their biggest goal is to break down that sense of entitlement.

 

I think about the best thing you can do is fall on your sword, say I'm sorry your honor, I fucked up, won't happen again and mean it.

 

The only time I've ever argued away a ticket it was for parking facing the wrong direction, on a 2 way street, 15 ft from where the road dead ended in a field, and the dead end happened to be the edge of the city limits, at 2:00 in the morning Didn't have to argue too hard for that one though

[jmace]

Duchess is right. Don't ever lie to get out of a lousy $50 fine. That puts you down the refusing to comply with a lawful order path--far worse.

 

No you see the idea is to lie and not get caught not lie and get caught..some people never figure it out.

 

Anyways you cant plead guilty then proceed to argue the law...doesnt work that way. What you can do is plead guilty and ask to have the fine reduced, based on the fact that you are a student. Which sounds like what was all set up for you..

 

Sucks but a hundred bones each aint so bad..maybe next time just say you went for a wee day time walk

[skykilo]

Permits are free in NCNP for another year or something. Oh, look - they want to raise fees to get into OlyNP!

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/outdoors/2003921103_parkfee03m.html

[Skeezix]

I can't resist weighing in here...

 

First of all, I detect nothing in Blake's original post blaming the ranger for the outcome of his case. Blake's anger and surprise were in response to the action of the judge.

 

Secondly, the seasonal NPS ranger you run into in the backcountry in NCNP is nobody's tool. I was fortunate enough to work as a mountaineering ranger there for 10 years, 1983-92. Over those ten years, I think I wrote fewer than 20 citations. Our enforcement priority was to gain voluntary compliance and to educate visitors.

 

Here's a few things that rangers do: Rangers study human impact on the landscape. In some cases they mitigate that impact by making repairs. Rangers manage visitation, to provide for enjoyment of the park by visitors, and to protect the resource for future generations. Rangers collect and dispense information about backcountry conditions. Rangers save people's asses when they get in a fix. Rangers teach minumum-impact camping and travel techniques to climbers and backpackers. There are a lot of other important things that rangers do.

 

Rangers are nobody's tools.

[Dannible]

We normally do get permits. Two weeks earlier we got a permit to go into two different zones, and we were told that the route we were taking was simply impossible (when we knew that many others had gone that way before us), and it took them about 30 minutes to figure out how to give us a permit for both zones. We remembered that when we were going out to do our big trip, which would have been through something like 5-10 different zones, and decided that getting a permit for all those areas would have been a hassle for both the rangers at the office, and us. Also, we would have needed to guess what days we were going to be in what zones, and where we were going to be sleeping, which would have been pretty hard given the length of the trip and the questionable weather. Lastly, there is no way that the permit would have helped them find us in the event of a rescue because all that they would know from the permit is that we were somewhere in or near the park, south of the highway, and could have gotten lost or injured anywhere in that area over the last couple of weeks. Thats a pretty big search area. I don't think that they even say that the permit is for SAR; obviously it might help, but I think most of us give someone more detailed info on where we are going and when we'll be back.

 

 

[Dannible]

 

Here's a few things that rangers do: Rangers study human impact on the landscape. In some cases they mitigate that impact by making repairs. Rangers manage visitation, to provide for enjoyment of the park by visitors, and to protect the resource for future generations. Rangers collect and dispense information about backcountry conditions. Rangers save people's asses when they get in a fix. Rangers teach minumum-impact camping and travel techniques to climbers and backpackers. There are a lot of other important things that rangers do.

 

I agree with you, to an extent. Before this summer, I have never had a negative experience with a ranger. The same ranger that gave us a ticket stopped to talk to some guys who gave us a ride down Cascade River Road, and apparently said "time to go bust some violators" when he left them heading towards Cascade Pass. That is not the attitude that I think rangers should have. A few weeks later we picked up a hitch hiker in the park who turned out to be on the park's trail crew. He said that everyone who works for the park thinks that the rangers are out of control this year, as they write anyone, including people who are on the clock for NPS at the time, a ticket.

 

Look back at this post: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/708509/page/0/fpart/1

[builder206]

I was a summer volunteer there 2002-2005. In the last year they have had several major personnel changes, including the superinetndent. Several long-time rangers have left, with exisitng people moving into the vacated positions while some new people have come in from elsewhere. The new superintendent, for example, moved here from another park. Either the flux has made people forget the previous culture or the new people have decided to make NCNP an unfriendly place.

 

That said, each year I was there there were always one or two seasonals who were stiff pricks and got reputations within the staff of being ill-suited to their roles precisely because the rangers want people to cooperate with them, not be coerced. These people were never allowed back.

[chucK]

With all the Mt. Hood hoopla this year, as well as the recent missing hiker and dead climbers dramas, this was probably not a good time to argue that because you were experienced climber guys that you didn't really need to follow the govt.-mandated safety procedures. Obviously the prosecutor's gist was aimed right at that current hot button.

 

[jmace]

Obviously the prosecutor's gist was aimed right at that current hot button.

 

No the prosecutor suggested a lower fine

[ncascadesranger]

 

 

i honestly cannot believe this just happen and I suppose I am looking to rant a little.

 

Blake: Unfortunately I think you started the rant abit early - in court in front of an (evidently) NPS-supportive judge. I hope you are sincere in your statement that you'll drop by here in Marblemount and get the permit next time.

 

Dannible: Blake told me about the permit experience that you describe here. It's true - some of the new lesser-experienced staff may take a few minutes to code a complex permit like the trips you guys take. Have some patience please; the data from interesting trips through remote wilderness is as important to us, if not more, than say, one night in Boston Basin. And your chance encounter with one of 25 trail crew members and that anecdotal info about the rangers seems unfair. But if it's important, I believe fewer tickets were written this year than most.

 

Others: At NCNP we have successfully kept the permit system free and available at all hours of the day and night (self issue system) despite political odds against that. I simply don't know how we can make it any easier. The permit data is used for many good things that I hope you might support - regarding endangered species and other wildlife, water quality, occasionally search and rescue, amongst many other things. I really don't like this issue to be an "us and them" thing as many of these posts seem to want to make it. The wilderness rangers are just people who are keenly interested in the mountains like you are (this is rather an obvious statement I realize...)and doing jobs that allow them to spend as much time as possible out there. Thanks to those who understand that even with wilderness a little responsibility and support from all of us (in this example, just get the free permit) in involved in the existence of this treasure of a national park. Feel free to call me with any questions or input about permits.

 

Kelly Bush

Wilderness District Ranger, 360-854-7241

[Dannible]

With all the Mt. Hood hoopla this year, as well as the recent missing hiker and dead climbers dramas, this was probably not a good time to argue that because you were experienced climber guys that you didn't really need to follow the govt.-mandated safety procedures. Obviously the prosecutor's gist was aimed right at that current hot button.

 

Like I said, I think they say that permits are more for usage stats and crowd control than SAR, as in our case the permit would not give them a reasonable search area. I understand that permits help preserve and minimize impact in popular areas, but most the places that we crossed through see very few visitors (like Blake said, we HAD a permit for the Boston Basin, the very place that we got ticketed), and when it comes down to it I think that a fine for not having a permit to sleep on public land is silly.

 

Sorry for my ranting, I just feel like we are being attacked a little.

[mythosgrl]

NCascadesRanger- isn't $250 a rediculous amount of money to pay for a fine for such a small offense? If I had your job I would be outraged that a judge was charging a college student that much money when he had already learned his lesson.

Edited October 3, 2007 by mythosgrl

[ivan]

NCascadesRanger- isn't $250 a rediculous amount of money to pay for a fine for such a small offense? If I had your job I would be outraged that a judge was charging a college student that much money when he had already learned his lesson.

that and, having met blake, he's an incredibly down to earth and friendly guy completly unlike the foul-mouthed, close-minded, stuborn jackass that i typify - i can't imagine him being anything other than penitent before a judge

 

out of curiosity, so am i supposed to have a permit for any overnighter anywhere in the park, including the oh-so-popular wa pass area?

[skykilo]

WaPass ain't in the park, dude.

[jmace]

and when it comes down to it I think that a fine for not having a permit to sleep on public land is silly.

 

Damn rights..gotta love BC for not havin that crap

[skykilo]

Yes, I love BC. Now could you tell the pretty bitch in immigration to quit impeding my entrance because of an eight-year-old public intoxication charge, please?

 

[billcoe]

.........a fine for not having a permit to sleep on public land is silly.

........

 

Poaching the KINGS deer space on the forest floor, even temporarily, is no laughing matter. Do not go onto the land you own unless you have asked for permission.

 

It's all about control, like the good ranger up there knows.

 

Novel idea: lets take all the petty gov't bureaucrats who live to control all of us and for pushing paper and send all of their tired asses to Iraq. Let them learn what productivity and a real mission is about eh?

 

 

[Mal_Con]

Some Judges are on an extreme power trip. I know because I practice exclusively in Federal Court. Unfortunately, you are pretty muck screwed as an appeal costs K's and the Circuit usually upholds the Judges unless you can prove they were taking bribes or buggering a clerk in chambers.

[catbirdseat]

Others: At NCNP we have successfully kept the permit system free and available at all hours of the day and night (self issue system) despite political odds against that. I simply don't know how we can make it any easier. The permit data is used for many good things that I hope you might support - regarding endangered species and other wildlife, water quality, occasionally search and rescue, amongst many other things. I really don't like this issue to be an "us and them" thing as many of these posts seem to want to make it. The wilderness rangers are just people who are keenly interested in the mountains like you are (this is rather an obvious statement I realize...)and doing jobs that allow them to spend as much time as possible out there. Thanks to those who understand that even with wilderness a little responsibility and support from all of us (in this example, just get the free permit) in involved in the existence of this treasure of a national park. Feel free to call me with any questions or input about permits.

 

Kelly Bush

Wilderness District Ranger, 360-854-7241

I am thinking back to my backpacking days in the Sierra Nevada range, of waiting in line for a limited number of permits to enter a particular trailhead. The kiosk opened at 6 am and we took turns waiting in line all night.

 

I think that the self-issue wilderness permit is a big improvement on those days.

[dmuja]

Dannible said:

I understand that permits help preserve and minimize impact in popular areas, but most the places that WE crossed through see very few visitors (like Blake said, we HAD a permit for the Boston Basin, the very place that we got ticketed), and when it comes down to it I think that a fine for not having a permit to sleep on public land is silly.

 

Im sure you guys are cool in person and great climbers. But the *I think it should go faster and be this way* etc.. and *We are different..* type thing seems to be the crux of the problem imo. It comes across even now as a bit selfish and arrogant. Not a big deal unless a law gets broke in which case it may become part of the issue.

 

Thanks for your comments Ranger Kelly.