Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[Raindawg]

Nothing wrong with organizing - if you remember your roots. If you don't, soon you sell out and become just another politician (see WMCC for example of how that comes about). If it comes down to the government blindly protecting bolted climbs, that just crosses a BIG line as far as Im concerned. Personally, if its going to come down to this, I'll revert to my extremist environmentalist roots etc... fill in the blank.. If this kind of dispute can't be resolved amoungst climbers, without government intervention, in Washington State, I'll bet there are a lot of folks who would chose to cut off ALL access to certain areas that are now considered climbing faves. If it comes down to escalating the stakes via bullshit tactics like this, so be it.

 

Actually, I agree with much of what "dmuja" has to say, and my point of compromise between carrying on the status quo or shutting down the climbing area would be to stop the bolting. (check out what has been done in Joshua Tree and elsewhere).

Joshua Tree Bolts

 

Climb trad with few bolts or top-rope your "special project", but unrestrained defilement (i.e. sport-bolting/grid bolting) of public property shouldn't be allowed.

[JosephH]

With regard to closure vs. defilement - Dishman was a perfect example of that. Had the

cycle of vandalism there continued and the AF didn't back closure in such a

situation than in my opinion they would be bankrupt relative to adopting an "access

at any cost" mentality. I believe there are definitely circumstances where

when all else fails closure should be the option preferred by the community. If we

and AF take a stand that can't recognize that then we're really just another interest

group exploiting resources and protecting our interests at any cost.

[Raindawg]

Have you ever clipped a bolt (not just in a climb, but at a set of anchors)? If you have, you're a hypocrite based on what you say above.

 

By the way, this isn't a hypocricy debate. You can clip a thousand bolts and still be ashamed of yourself. The hypocrisy issue is one of those ad hominen fallacies that does nothing other than to muddy the waters to distract from the issues themselves.

[dmuja]

Yes, I admit it, Ive clipped bolts. I didnt drill them though, and I certainly dont claim to be a purist. I don't call it climbing though, I call it practicing. And I don't call myself "a climber" or anything else for that matter. I don't give a fuck what you call me over te interwack (you got big balls though for saying something like that before you meet me though boy). Im not a Raindawg or Pope wanna be - but if it makes you feel good to think so, go for it - I happen to agree with most of what they say however.

 

Heres my take;

 

Bolts are here - there are too many bolts and bolted routes, and if your going to start putting people in jail for chopping them, then you should first look at the people who drill them. Maybe some of the guide book authors should be doing serious time.

 

I see more and more bolts going in - and that worries me because of the impact on the environment and the seemingly total lack of respect many sport climbers have for the environment. I don't like to see trails disintegrate, smell piss breath smoke, pick up butts and trash and beer cans, listen to idiots jump (fall) off routes and yell "yahoo" etc.

 

I grew up with quite high valuation of the environment, nature, the wilderness - thanks to my older brother and main climbing partner. I admit that for climbing a few bolts, I have strayed from that somewhat. But while the Washington Climbers Coalition is otherwise concerned, NorthBend will soon be a suburb of Bellevue. Climbing for me is secondary to preserving the environment - if I had to make a choice Id just as soon see a ban on climbing rather than a further trashing of the environment.

 

My main issue here is this unholy aliance between bolt protectors and governmental autority. Start arresting choppers and youll just escalate things to a nasty level of confrontation. How do you think extremism gets going anyway? Environmentalists are quite powerful in the state of WA and if this kind of thing were to catch on here I guarentee a big backlash against bolts and against climbing in general. Generally speaking, NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO BOLT ON PUBLIC LANDS. What I wonder and am still amazed by is this question, how is it that so may climbers think they can just walk up to a crag on public land, start bolting it, and have "rights" to keep it there? In most cases, a chopper has JUST AS MUCH (or MORE) RIGHTS to chop it as the one putting it in.

 

As for Raindawg and Pope, of coarse I don't even compare to their eloquence or experience and I don't pretend to. But they are not alone in their views by any means - unless you think the world revolves around cc.com

 

 

As for the name calling, as peewee would say, "I know you are but what am I..."

[kevbone]

 

BTW Porter, neither you (nor I) have a "right" to drill bolts into rock and climb on it. You may have a defacto "right" to access such areas, but vandalizing momma nature will always be a crime in my view.

 

 

Man if you are going to got there then you or I do not have the right to cut down tree's and pour concrete and call it a road....but we do anyway.

[kevbone]

The inital war was ignited when Ken was repeatedly provoked by folks coming in from out of state and bolting.

 

What an asshole……”its my state….and you will do what I want you to do”…..What does think he is fucking Hitler?

 

It’s that mentality that started EVERYTHING

 

 

Bolt wars are never a one-sided affair and they always start when bolts appear, not when they disappear.

 

Not true…..ask Marting (out at the zone), he was involved with a bolt war about 10 years ago. He states that the choppers came in a chopped and then the crack started getting filled with oil and other lame shit. This ensued for about 2 years until the crag looked like a war zone and the land mgr at the time closed the cliff. No one won…..everybody lost.

 

This started the minute the FIRST BOLT WAS CHOPPED….not the other way around.

 

[high_on_rock]

Dmuja, nice post. From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake. Personal attacks typically only return personal attacks. It is probably internet anonymity that gives some folks the willingness to make such personal attacks on good people whom they do not truly know.

 

I fully agree with many points you make. If a guy kept bolting where he was not supposed to, and the climbing community could not stop him and the land managers could not stop him; then let the courts deal with that person too. It is a rarity that the courts are seen as the answer, rather the exception to the rule. I would personally like to even see “a good old ass kicking” come in as a pre-step before turning to the law, but I know that is a minority view.

 

I also agree that merely because your position is the minority position does not mean that it is to be ignored. Our country was founded on the premise of protecting the minority from the majority, and I feel strongly about that principle. But to put forth a minority view takes even greater patience, communication, and temper management. Merely pissing on folks in a condescending manner and professing one’s own superiority as some have tried, will only harden the majority from listening or caring.

 

Most of the folks on cc.com are overeducated people of great character. Treating them that way and honoring them with rational argument will not only gain respect for person, but also for position.

 

Merely my opinion

Eric

 

[olyclimber]

dmuja, I don't mean to belittle your beliefs, I have complete respect for your right to hold them(and I share many of them with you).

 

The fact is that the climbing community is filled with people with differing and often conflicting beliefs (like Christian vs. Islam, etc). Is there a way to share the common resources without total annihilation of the opposition?

 

 

[JosephH]

Kevin,

 

You always start from a position of a right or entitlement to bolt - none exists. Bolt wars

only exists because bolts do - don't bolt where they aren't wanted and no bolt

wars will occur. Chopping is never the starting point, placing the bolts where they

aren't welcome is always the starting point.

[catbirdseat]

A lot of you folks are just plain missing the point here. The point is that in certain areas climbers have been able to organize to reach a consensus on how areas are to be managed. Once that happens, individuals don't have the right to unilaterally come in throw bombs by either chopping bolts or placing bolts.

 

Some places think bolts are okay, some places think they are not. If you want to have a say, join the group, attend the meetings and vote. If you don't like the prevailing ethics, go somewhere else.

[JosephH]

Well Cat, that's exactly what happened in CT - the locals organized against bolting.

Then folks who could have climbed elsewhere or simply stayed in their own area deliberately

came to CT to bolt to provoke the issue.

[kevbone]

Kevin,

 

You always start from a position of a right or entitlement to bolt - none exists. Bolt wars only exists because bolts do - don't bolt where they aren't wanted and no bolt wars will occur. Chopping is never the starting point, placing the bolts where they aren't welcome is always the starting point.

 

I start from a position of respect those who came before you.....if you were not the first at a crag.....you loose out...

[catbirdseat]

Well Cat, that's exactly what happened in CT - the locals organized against bolting. Then folks who could have climbed elsewhere or simply stayed in their own area deliberately came to CT to bolt to provoke the issue.

So Ken decided to right a wrong by committing another wrong. While he may represent your ethical view, he's a poor choice for a representative of that view.

[olyclimber]

Joseph,

 

Sure, there is no legal "right or entitlement to bolt". It is about what is legal and fair for people to do on public land (private land should be at the discretion of the owner I would think). But if there is also no law prohibiting the bolts (except for placement method in Wilderness, etc)...so a compromise must be made somehow? Isn't this the publics land, and there are many differing opinions out there. How do you reconcile "Don't bolt where bolts aren't wanted" with a viewpoint that all bolts everywhere must be chopped?

 

Another example building a trail on a public land...it too scars the land from its pristine state. The starting point should be some agreement to the exact use of the resource (either developing for recreational use it or maintaining the pristine state). However, even if such micromanaging happens, I'm sure that Hayduke will live on...

 

[pope]

The more I think about this issue, the more I begin to think that we need a new approach. Instead of trying to change the minds of so many sport climbers, we should educate leaders of environmental groups about the impacts of sport climbing and encourage them to lobby for laws banning bolts. Today's climbers have a lot more in common with ORV groups than bird watchers. Here's to rasing awareness.

[JayB]

Good luck with that.

 

Do us all a favor and create a thread where you post your correspondence with various environmental groups and their responses to you, as well as all of the legislative and administrative victories that you amass in your crusade to get sport climbing outlawed.

[SlickWilly]

The more I think about this issue, the more I begin to think that we need a new approach. Instead of trying to change the minds of so many sport climbers, we should educate leaders of environmental groups about the impacts of sport climbing and encourage them to lobby for laws banning bolts. Today's climbers have a lot more in common with ORV groups than bird watchers. Here's to rasing awareness.

 

All that will do is get areas shut down to ALL kinds of climbing and bring about further ridiculous regulations.

[Raindawg]

Good luck with that.

 

Do us all a favor and create a thread where you post your correspondence with various environmental groups and their responses to you, as well as all of the legislative and administrative victories that you amass in your crusade to get sport climbing outlawed.

 

Who said outlaw sport-climbing? I'd just like to see it banned from PUBLIC land. Those who insist on practicing that form of "climbing" should perhaps find some private land that they can choose to damage. Go buy some rocks. How 'bout the "Washington Climbers Coalition" and the "Access Fund" raise some money and buy Frenchman's Coulee....it's already been wrecked and they could put a fence around it, charge admission and even keep out trad climbers if they want, and then wreck it some more. Didn't they buy a couple of rocks in Icicle Canyon?

As public land, though, I'd rather see places like Vantage shut down to ALL climbing until the place is restored, rather than allow more bolt trails.

What? Not enough natural lines in Vantage to keep climbers happy?

The face routes are too long to top-rope or belay from the top?

Not enough to satisfy the uncontrollable urge to drill???

[geoff]

I was trying to read on but this one.... Are you f'ing kidding?

 

Ever been to a strip mine? Ever used any of the products that come from a mine.

 

Ever seen a clear cut? Ever used any wood cut in such a way?

 

Have you ever driven on a road? Forget the road, you got a car?

 

You eat meat?

 

Please, when you compare the vandalism that you beset on momma nature every single day to a few bolts in a rock in the woods, the fact that you need a new basis for your rant should be clear.

 

You think you are right? Then get your like minded folks together and work within the system. If not, you're just some thug, probably getting old, and upset that "things just ain't the way they used to be." Life sucks, get a helmet-or not. Clip the bolts or not.

 

You want more risk and uncertainty? There are plenty of places you can find that. Try your extremist environmentalist crap in the open and you will find both.

 

 

[Thudman]

There are also places where bolts can protect the more "natural" environment (short of closing the crag). Some popular routes originally used trees as anchors and have since had bolt anchors placed. Gray bolts on gray rock are less visible than slings around trees and save the trees from further damage. A blanket bolting ban would prevent this kind of anchor.

[kevbone]

I was trying to read on but this one.... Are you f'ing kidding?

 

Ever been to a strip mine? Ever used any of the products that come from a mine.

 

Ever seen a clear cut? Ever used any wood cut in such a way?

 

Have you ever driven on a road? Forget the road, you got a car?

 

You eat meat?

 

Please, when you compare the vandalism that you beset on momma nature every single day to a few bolts in a rock in the woods, the fact that you need a new basis for your rant should be clear.

 

You think you are right? Then get your like minded folks together and work within the system. If not, you're just some thug, probably getting old, and upset that "things just ain't the way they used to be." Life sucks, get a helmet-or not. Clip the bolts or not.

 

You want more risk and uncertainty? There are plenty of places you can find that. Try your extremist environmentalist crap in the open and you will find both.

 

 

 

Well said....all of it. Take that purists!

[jmace]

I was trying to read on but this one.... Are you f'ing kidding?

 

Ever been to a strip mine? Ever used any of the products that come from a mine.

 

Ever seen a clear cut? Ever used any wood cut in such a way?

 

Have you ever driven on a road? Forget the road, you got a car?

 

You eat meat?

 

Please, when you compare the vandalism that you beset on momma nature every single day to a few bolts in a rock in the woods, the fact that you need a new basis for your rant should be clear.

 

You think you are right? Then get your like minded folks together and work within the system. If not, you're just some thug, probably getting old, and upset that "things just ain't the way they used to be." Life sucks, get a helmet-or not. Clip the bolts or not.

 

You want more risk and uncertainty? There are plenty of places you can find that. Try your extremist environmentalist crap in the open and you will find both.

 

 

Fuck ya!!!

 

 

[Raindawg]

The more I think about this issue, the more I begin to think that we need a new approach. Instead of trying to change the minds of so many sport climbers, we should educate leaders of environmental groups about the impacts of sport climbing and encourage them to lobby for laws banning bolts. Today's climbers have a lot more in common with ORV groups than bird watchers. Here's to rasing awareness.

 

This reminds me of a few years ago when the dirty deed known as the Infinite Bastard route on Mt. Garfield was just coming to the attention of many. There was fear that The Man was monitoring cc.com and would realize that there was no concensus on the issues of bolts. Paranoia spread that The Man could do a search of the site using the word "bolts" and learn that not everybody loves sport-bolting thus spoiling the ambitions of the dominant advocacy groups! To keep the on-line conversation in stealth-mode, some folks started referring to bolts as B-LT's in order to thwart the search engines and prevent the wider truth from being known.

"pope" posted this wonderful parody picture showing all the B-LT's on one little section of "Exit 38":

 

 

The tasty sandwiches were pasted over pictures of the real bolts as pointed out here, showing the kind of mess some of us find offensive (there are actually more bolts in the picture than he circled):

 

 

 

[Choada_Boy]

Yeah! Who wants to see bolts on a cliff next to a highway?

 

BTW: I only eat strip-mined meat.

[catbirdseat]

Raindawg, you are correct in your assertion that there is not a GLOBAL consensus on bolts. But on the LOCAL level there are and that's what we are talking about here.