South Early Winter Spire Bolt

[shaoleung]

I was climbing the South Arete with friends earlier this month. When we got to the whale-back, I noticed someone had taken it upon themselves to smash the bolt a few times with a rock. Were it closer to the ground one might suspect it to be vandalism. Someone obviously thought it shouldn't be there. While I understand the debate of "should it stay or should it go?"... if you don't like it, take it out. At least it was a useful addition to the whale back. Now it is simply a worthless eyesore.

 

Which brings me to the question. As a community in the Cascades, do really want to chop bolts that are there for safety on such popular, easy, child-friendly climbs? Is one bolt ruining the experience for others?

[ken4ord]

IMO- There was no need for a bolt there. Without it there the climb is still a popular, easy and child friendly climb. It does suck that the person who did it, didn't do a proper job.

[Kat_Roslyn]

It was there a couple days ago.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Yeah, how big is your freakin' biner. I clipped that thing no problem, though it is a bit unnecessary.

[dmuja]

I heard like 2 years ago that hanger was pounded flat.

 

Maybe there's a bolt war going on at the fin?

[shaoleung]

I climbed it around the same time last year and it looked brand new.

[goatboy]

previous discussion of this topic from awhile back this spring...

 

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/684674/page/3#Post684674

 

 

[catbirdseat]

The damaged bolt on the whaleback is still there. One could get a sling through it but not a carabiner. It's not needed by experienced climbers who wouldn't even rope up for that section, but it can make novice climbers feel a lot better to be roped there. And if you're roped, you are better off having a point of protection.

 

The fact that it is needed was driven home by the rap slings on the little tree just below the summit. It's an easy downclimb, third class, but someone felt they needed to rap. Anyone needed to rap there would probably also need a belay on the Whaleback.

 

Speaking of which, you see rap stations in the most bizarre places. On the SW Rib there was a nest of slings at the "rabbit ears" on the second to last pitch. Just before that there is an easy 4th class descent into the gully with protection.

 

Then in the gully there was a cordellette with rap slings around a block where someone rapped into a dreadful cleft leading to the dirty main gully. A short 5.2 pitch led to the summit and the easy S. Arete walk off.

Edited July 3, 2007 by catbirdseat

[jpasteris]

Speaking of which, you see rap stations in the most bizarre places. On the SW Rib there was a nest of slings at the "rabbit ears" on the second to last pitch. Just before that there is an easy 4th class descent into the gully with protection.

 

A lot of the guide books call out the rappel into the gully via the rabbit ears. I agree with you though, the 4th class descent is pretty easy, and in my opinion, preferred.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Speaking of which, you see rap stations in the most bizarre places. On the SW Rib there was a nest of slings at the "rabbit ears" on the second to last pitch. Just before that there is an easy 4th class descent into the gully with protection.

 

A lot of the guide books call out the rappel into the gully via the rabbit ears. I agree with you though, the 4th class descent is pretty easy, and in my opinion, preferred.

 

The better way to go is around the left of the Rabbit Ear, avoiding the downclimb/rappel altogether. WTF would you want to rappel on an ascent??

[Bill_Simpkins]

I don't think that bolt should be there. There is ample natural protection on either side to keep people from sliding into the abyss, that is of course they loose grip of the GIANT FREAKING HOLDS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACE!!!

 

Now that I got that out of the way ... I'd prefer a functional bolt than a damaged one. But if people got that far, they've already done the hardest parts.

[Mattski]

Once the bolt is in the rock is defaced, but chopping it is just one person's opinion and a hassle for those who come after. I say f*** the art critics and stop beating defenseless bolts!

[chucK]

Coming down that thing last weekend, it looked to me like one could easily walk below that spine on climber's right, then climb up a little gully about 15 feet to get back on the ridge.

 

That would make much more sense if one was bringing a newbie up there, as then the rope would be above the newbie at the point when a fall was even remotely possible. But that wouldn't be quite as aesthetic or exciting, and you want to show your clients a good time!

[pu]

I may have a moderate amount of bolt chopping experience but I can't say I was offended by THE BOLT on sews. Don't hammer on bolts. Twist em' off or pull em'. Maybe even forget it exists. I don't think it is worth all of this energy. Go climbing.

[goatboy]

That bolt is silly.

[scott_johnston]

That bolt was placed by a universally well respected climber in the NW climbing community who has more experience on hard alpine routes in big mountains than half the people on this board put togther. He did a credible job of "hiding" it on the off side so that many folks never even know it is there.

 

Sure, almost all of us never need to think of roping up for that traverse on a sunny day in July. But believe it or not some folks need to belay that entire route. Try guiding that section in a safe manner when it is covered in verglas or snow. I climb that route at least a dozen times a year and have seen some things done by supposedly experienced climbers all over that climb that can only make you shake your head. The bolt was placed in a careful and considerate manner for those that might need it whatever their circumstances.

 

You want hard and runout do you? Need to prove your man? Rather than pick on a trade route that has one bolt where NO other protection options exist go hop on Tooth and Claw and tell me how you like those runouts. I have not seen a TR from that rig in like...........forever! Hummmmm, why do you suppose that is?

 

Scott Johnston

[goatboy]

Fair enough, Scott -- and well-said -- but there's a difference between arguing against the bolt on SEWS and craving something "hard and runout." The logic of that part of your post is, for me, kinda hard...and runout....to follow. Couldn't that knife-edge section of the S Arete be managed via a short fixed line if that bolt wasn't there, in snowy/icy conditions or if a party's skill level warranted such a strategy?

 

Another question: If a well-respected climber places a bolt in a silly place, does that make it better than an unrespected climber placing a bolt in a silly place?

 

This is nothing personal -- I appreciate all the new route development you've done in the area and the excellent TR's which you post. I am responding to the position you take in your last post, however.

[catbirdseat]

Another question: If a well-respected climber places a bolt in a silly place, does that make it better than an unrespected climber placing a bolt in a silly place?

 

The well-respected climber obviously didn't think it was a silly place, now, did he? I don't either.

 

The idea that one could put a fixed line there to protect that traverse is pretty silly if you ask me. All fixed lines need appropriate anchors. If you fixed a line, the ends would be anchored lower than the middle.

[lizard_brain]

I was thinking the same thing... Does "universally well respected climber in the NW climbing community who has more experience on hard alpine routes in big mountains than half the people on this board put togther" mean "license to put bolts in odd places"? What does that have to do with anything?

 

I've climbed that route a few times, and the first time I saw that bolt there, my reaction was "Wow - that's really strange!"

 

 

[goatboy]

Hey cbs,

 

I understand that this person thought it was a good place to put a bolt, or he wouldn't have put it there.

 

My question has to do with the principle: If a well-respected climber put a bolt somewhere that YOU thought was silly, would it be more okay than an unknown climber putting it there? I'm not talking about this one bolt in particular -- I'm talking about the merit of the person being well-known, or not, giving license or lending credibility to that choice.

 

Your point about the fixed line is a good one -- maybe that was a dumb idea.

[lizard_brain]

Whenever I cross that whaleback, I walk across the top of it anyway, instead of doing a lieback (I like to show off). To clip into that bolt, I would have to stop and squat down and reach BELOW my feet to do so, so I skip it, since it is so awkward.

[scott_johnston]

Goatboy:

 

My point of making the taunting reference to Tooth and Claw was that for some folks; that exposed traverse holds as much intimidation that the runouts on accepted hard climbs do for more experienced climbers.

 

Certainly there are other ways to manage that traverse and your fixed rope idea is one of them. I believe that most folks will not have the skills nor take the time to build the necessary bomber anchors for a horizontal fixed rope. You have to admit that the bolt was a simple and tidy way of solving an otherwise difficult problem. And my point as regards that solution was that it was placed in an unobtrusive place that went unnoticed by most climbers.

 

I have often heard the argument presented that "I don't need that bolt so it should go." It is easy to dis bolts placed on easy (for you) climbs. If you don't believe me just go read the continuing nonsensical debate about the bolt spacing on Prime Rib. Folks are actually bragging about skipping bolts on 5.8!! I find that kind of argument specious and by making the challenging comparison to Tooth and Claw perhaps I was over reacting but not everyone feels comfortable on long runouts even on "easy" ground.

 

You are entitled to call the bolt silly if you choose. But, the next time you are sketched and feel the need to clip a "silly" bolt that Peter Croft would scamper past perhaps you will consider the hypocracy in the relief that you feel when safely clipped while you are wanting to deny that same feeling to some beginner on their first lead. The argument that good climbers deserve protection on hard routes but poor or inexperienced climbers do not deserve protection on "easy" climbs just doesn't hold water.

 

Nothing personal, I think this is a discussion long overdue.

Scott Johnston

[dan_forester]

yeah, not being a very good climber myself, and not having much opportunity to skip bolts ever, I just want to say "thanks" to whoever put that bolt in on the class 3 section of that route, 'cause now even I can feel like a hardman when I saunter past it...

 

seriously, though, I didn't even see it the one time I was up there. I think it must not be super obvious?

[goatboy]

Hello again Scott. Thanks for putting forth not only a guide's perspective, but also some local perspective, by the way.

 

Having said that, we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

I hear you saying that the bolt is well-hidden (as dan just attested), consciously and intentionally placed, and useful for many people. I agree with all that, but still question its merits based on the reasons I've heard for it.

 

The two arguments I've heard you make for this particular bolt are:

 

1) A guiding scenario in snow and ice, early season, in which case the bolt adds a great deal of security and efficiency under challenging conditions;

 

2) The scenario of a novice climber on their first lead feeling more secure after clipping into the bolt.

 

I am sure that in BOTH scenarios the involved parties would be glad to clip that particular bolt, and both feel and be safer as a result.

 

But where does this line of reasoning end? Does it extend to placing more bolts (i.e. in the chimney section down below, which can be quite icy in early season)? To make an extreme point, how about chipping some holds or steps along the arete to make it easier?

 

Just because you can guide it without these add'l bolts or chipped steps doesn't mean that you should deny less confident guides or leaders the security that they would provide....according to the line of reasoning I extrapolate from the earlier posts.

 

Why do they not deserve the security that these simple improvements would offer? And what if these improvements were made by a noted, world-class NW alpinist?

 

If the route is too difficult to guide without adding bolts, should it be guided early season? If the novice leader can't safely lead the route without the added bolt....should they be doing it? You see my line of thinking here I am sure, whether you agree or not...

 

NOTE: Much of this post of mine is ridiculous, inflated sarcasm meant to test the validity of the line of reasoning, NOT an argument for more bolts or chipped holds anywhere, really...

 

 

[scott_johnston]

Goatboy;

Some good points have been mentioned in this discussion but it appears that some info might be missing in the evaluation of the merits of this or any bolt. Some of what I say will be obvious to some but maybe not to all so bear with me here.

 

1)By well respected and vastly experienced I had hoped to imply that this climber has much experience in many varied climbing scenarios. His esteem has come from his experience and good judgement shown during some 35+ years of climbing. I am not involving him in this discussion out of respect (for the record it is not Steve House). Just as you might defer to someone who is more skilled and experienced in any other climbing situation (even asking for beta)it does not seem unreasonable to give the benefit of the doubt to someone with such knowledge. He didn't earn his reputation by being a Bozo. In several of the earlier posts here the argument was put forth that since the poster didn't see the need/use for the bolt there must not be a use. I tried to make the point that there might indeed be uses that many folks seemed unwilling or unable to acknowledge and that the person who placed the bolt just might have thought through the placement pretty thouroughly. Anyone who has ever spent an hour hand drilling a bolt hole knows that this is not a casual decision.

 

2)No one seems to be willing to defend the position that 5.11 climbers deserve to have bolts at the ready but 5.2 climbers do not. I am not talking chipping holds or any other extreme thing you are suggesting. I am talking purely about a simple protection bolt where nothing else will serve. It would be the rare modern climber who has not enjoyed the benefits of clipping bolts on routes that tested their ability. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the retro bolting that took place on the Beckey Leen E Butt Direct of SEWS some 12 years ago. The old 1/4" bolts were replaced and new bolts (some 2 feet apart) added to the second ladder where hooks were used at first. All the 5.11 climbers (and some who weren't) I have ever talked to were glad to clip each bolt. None of them whined about the destruction of that classic climb like some of the posters on this thread seem to be implying about the S arete. In fact I'll wager that the Beckey-Leen gets climbed 10 times as often since the retro bolting took place. In my opinion it is a wonderful and difficult free climb now which has bolts linking crack systems to create a true classic.

So I ask again: Why do advenced climbers deserve to have bolts where needed but beginners do not?? We climb for many reasons and I tend to think the world is a better place if more people get out there and challenge themselves in the mountinas and on the crags at whatever level they find their challenge.

 

3)You make the same old argument about where do we stop if we allow bolting to occur at all. We are debating one simple protection bolt here not the end of climbing as we know it because of the downward spiral in ethics. This bolting debate is as old as the rap bolting debate, the chalk debate or the sticky rubber debate or the nuts vs pins debate but I have been around long enough to have heard them all. Unless you climb naked and with no rope you are already admitting that you have adopted modern technology to the artificial construct of climbing rock. So to follow the argument that you seem to be proposing to its logical conclusion would reduce the number of climbers by 99/9%. Will you be left climbing in this pure state? I sure won't. So, instead the climbing community has evloved with the technology and done so quite nicely, I think. No one today would try to equate top roping or hangdogging your way up a sport 5.12 with an onsight ascent, on gear of a remote alpine 5.12. We have new frames of reference with which to view our "sport" that didn't even exist 25 years ago.

 

I submit that to place bolts in the chimney pitch lower on the route as you allude to would go beyond the accepted norm for almost everyone. There are ample natural protection sites there so that bolts would be totally redundant. On the traversing arete about which all this bruhaha is over there are no gear options at all. To me, your attempt to draw a conlcusion from dissimilar situations is without any merit as the situations are completely different. One has temporary gear options the other has NONE.

 

4)If you don't need the bolt; don't clip it. It really is that simple. When you climb a crack you have the option (to some extent) of placing as much gear as want where you need it. If you don't need it you don't place it. Simple. Some folks sew up 5.6. Some will run out the same crack but I never hear that the seamstress has some how deminished the bold guy's climb.

 

5)Some posters seem confused as to why the bolt is where it is. It is at the high point of the traverse to afford the most protection possible. While one can lead past it and belay on the other side (while acending and descending the route)that places the leader below the second with very bad consequences should the second fall (a penduulum ground fall of 50'). I will grant that the likelyhood of a fall there is small but a resuce would be required and most likely a heli evac causing a lot of problems for many people. So what I do when guiding is to sit au cheval on the arete at the bolt and clip in. I then belay the client(s) across. I am as much above them as I can possibly be, have minimized the potential penduulum and I can coach them if they have difficulties. This is not something that many of you have had the need of doing but perhaps my explaining the reasoning and thought behind all of this will serve to shed some light.

 

You would not believe the number of folks I have watched fall off the first pitch of that climb; some coming perilously close to decking. Many of them I am sure felt like experienced leaders but I have seen gear pulled, gear too low to keep the leader off the ground, no gear, poorly placed gear. I have seen leaders spend 20 minutes shaking on that 5.5 crux. These are the folks that are attracted to this sort of climb: Not the likes of the probably very competant climbers involved in this discusion.

 

Sorry for the long winded post

Scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2007 by scott_johnston