Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[JosephH]

Now, I'm all for anger. I'm also a big fan of righteous smiting, but this whole angry tradman-prybar-as-phallus thing is counter-productive. Yanked routes are invariably re-bolted while guerilla action taken on individual hangers is downright irresponsible.

 

The problem is that if one takes this attitude then these practices essentially never end and by slow creep, sooner or later, you're into the whole retro-bolting nightmare.

 

To those of you that say there should be no limit, no boundaries, and that any bolt that creeps into a rock is then sacrosanct - I personally just can't imagine a more radical, activist, and in many ways clearly self-serving and self-fulfilling viewpoint. At just exactly what point is a bolt war and / or closure preferrable in every way to unrestrained bolting? Never, you say? Then we whole-heartedly disagree - I very much do have limits beyond which I feel any responsible 'Access Fund' should actually support closure before unrestrained bolting every single time.

 

Practices such as described in this thread sound very much like they are approaching that limit.

[ken4ord]

The question is "Who?"

 

Who is bolting these routes? I know the climbs discussed here are in the Kramar guide, but I don't have it here.

 

I bet the folks bolting up the cracks are sport climbers that simply don't know any better.

 

I would suggest that some of the crack-bolters are sport-climbers who don't know how to climb cracks. Crack climbing is an art that takes practice. Given that a lot of sporto's are gym-graduates, many probably don't have the appropriate skills. Last time me 'n "pope" went to a gym (some place in Seattle), there was a just a little section in the giant complex with a hand crack. We walked right up this thing and most of the gym-rats stared at us like we were a couple of aliens. Not only aren't the sporty masses trained well (or at all) for cracks, they're not trained well to place protection. They learn, in the gym and at the sporty crags, that clippin' bolts is "how it's done".

 

 

 

Crap like this is why I find myself defending the gym person more than the "old school tradie" I learned "pre-gym" for the record and go out of my way to teach the kids that climb in my gym about gear, natural climbing ethics style etc. Unlike raindawg, who seems to think a holier-than-thou, demeaning attitude is the answer to his "issues", I try to be positive and encourage the "newer generation" to see, do and respect all types of climbing.

I climbed with them at smith (the spawn of the devil area to dawg) - got on the bolted climbs with them, had a great time and they were psyched. Then I said - lets go do these cracks. Guess what, they had a great time and were psyched. Now, they respected my views and as time goes on, I'm able to share my thoughts on grid bolting (negative) slab climbing (positive) etc etc. Guess what? two just started racks and asked when I was heading out to index next? Weird huh?

 

Now imagine if I called them un-skilled sporto gym rats and mocked their abilities while praising my own. Yeah, they'd ignore any advice on ethics or anything else and the rift would grow. Great way to improve climbing knowledge and respect of the natural way.

 

Stop being part of the problem.

 

Well said Matt. I have experienced the same thing. Most people I have met in the gym who are learning to climb in a gym are interested in trad climbing, but sometime think they would never be able to figure it out or thinks it is dangerous. Sometimes all it takes is some education (taking them out on gear routes, showing them the ropes) to get them into trad climbing. Or you can call them a pussy, and pretty much be sure that they will put their money toward a bosch and set of draws.

[ken4ord]

Part of the attraction of sport-climbing is that the learning curve is immensely shallow, providing nearly immediate gratification. When compared with the effort it takes to learn to competently place removable gear, it's hard to compete with the cheap and safe seduction of "clip and go!", so the drills keep drilling to support the less complicated mode that appeals to the most people (despite its contradiction to an outdoors "leave little trace" philosophy that most, ironically, will likely agree to in theory if asked). But the people selling the gear love the big boost in sales to the instant "climbers"!

 

 

There you go again man, as long you keep telling them that it is difificult to learn to place and remove gear, they'll buy it. I don't believe gear climbing is really that difficult, it is more common sense than anything. Yeah I agree part of the attraction is that it is simpler to sport climb than it is to gear climb, but you make out to be that it is really difficult to learn to climb with gear.

 

Retailers I think would prefer to see more trad climbers as there is more equipment to be sold vs. just a set of draws and rope. Another part of the attraction to sport climbing is that it is cheaper set up inorder to climb outside.

[AlpineK]

In general terms: I grew up trad climbing and that is what gives climbing the biggest thrill for me. I've also done a large number of crazy routes.

 

However I have done quite a number of sport routes, and while I would never call for more sport routes to get put up, they are fun.

 

Being about one year out from a bad injury that involved a fall onto a hard surface I have a different perspective about things. I've been trying to keep things safe while getting back into climbing. From my perspective sport routes provide a safe way to get back into things. I'm not back to leading, but just unclipping quick-draws is a lot easier than unclipping and cleaning real pro.

 

From my view sporto routes provide an entry route into climbing, but it's our job to tell new climbers, "You ain't a real climber tell you can climb stuff that has more than just bolts for pro."

[richard_noggin]

Blake, if you don't put in lots of bolts (on rappell) and next to cracks then no one will no you were there and you can't get into the guidebooks and look cool for the mass hordes of 5.9 weekend warriors. While your at it, its also fashionable to clean up some overgrown boulders that generations of climbers have climbed before you, claim first ascent, give the boulder and your "new" problem some shnazzy name and write your own guide book about it. Happy times!

 

So a lot of you are dis'n people that are cleaning and establishing problems or routes that are getting in guide books.

Some of these boulder problems after cleaning are not the same rateing after cleaning let alone pull'n off a key hold and do'n the back slap.

Routes that take days of preperation I can climb in minutes.

The fact that I can grab a guide book find a problem or route that is clean and fun, have a rateing concensious ,I can throw down on it and judge my accomplishment...this a bad thing??

I prefer overhang'n jug sport climbs, but I still pull down on a boulder problem now and then, that is if it's close to the ground or I have 10 kids to spot me, and I have got to tell you, these kids are have'n one hell of a good time. I will bag a peak or two a year, and at least a couple times a year you can find me on some dirty offwidth or bark'n myself up on some crack way over my head. Open your minds try new things, climb it all, instead of talk'n smack, do your own thing and put up a climb. Than watch them come out of the wood work to Dis it and you

 

To the people put'n up climbs , boulder problems, or put'n out guide books, don't let the smack talkers bum you out, you can't please everyone and few if any are putting up anything, they are just a few , just ignore them ,it tweeks them out . I for one appericate what you are do'n as do the majorty of climbers. Proof is: guide books sell and there is usually a wait for Gun Rack or the Javelin on a weekend.

 

If you can't say anything good about a climb or person ...just don't say anything at all.

Dick

 

[JosephH]

If I actually knew how to pull bolts and patch holes I might do that, but I don't so I wont.

 

- Break nut by over-torquing with a breaker bar.

 

- Lightly clean hole and immediate surrounds by blowing and the corner of a dense brass wire brush.

 

- Break off a chunk of plumber's stick epoxy or colored stick epoxy, mix really well, and then smear from the center of the hole to the outside pressing hard. Pressing hard while smearing is important so the epoxy adheres to the rock, both in the hole and immediately at the entrance.

 

- Overfill a tad and let the epoxy extend beyond the hole, sometimes a ways depending on the state of the outside of the hole and the contours of the immediate surrounds.

 

- Use the brass wire brush to embed the epoxy. Do this by putting the brush on the epoxy and pressing hard steadily - by hard I mean like full body weight. Usually I do this several times over the whole patch and if I'm working with an area a bit larger than the hole I'll also use a corner to again work from the middle of the hole to the edges. You're normally just pressing straight in but at the edges you'll also want to be smearing hard, hard, hard towards those edges in a final slide to separate epoxy that's adhering from waste epoxy thereby defining the edge of the patch.

 

- Finish with a couple of straight-in presses of all the wire spines to texture (perfect for andacite and basalt) - then use the heel of you palm to take the wire-dot texture down a notch or two if it's too much.

 

- The objective relative to the amount of epoxy is to have enough epoxy to work with to sculpt to match surrounding countours. If a slight ridge, ripple, or depression goes through the hole or immediately next to it you should replicate the missing piece of it. Really pay attention to details on the millimeter level. You can remove excess epoxy quite easily with the brass wire brush in the course of finishing the patch.

 

Done right you can make basically invisible repairs.

 

 

 

[fenderfour]

Maybe.

 

What did you climb?

 

Pics?

 

GM, Princely, and the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

No pics, but I have the mosquito bites to prove it.

[pdawg]

"To those of you that say there should be no limit, no boundaries, and that any bolt that creeps into a rock is then sacrosanct - I personally just can't imagine a more radical, activist, and in many ways clearly self-serving and self-fulfilling viewpoint. At just exactly what point is a bolt war and / or closure preferrable in every way to unrestrained bolting? Never, you say? Then we whole-heartedly disagree - I very much do have limits beyond which I feel any responsible 'Access Fund' should actually support closure before unrestrained bolting every single time" -JosephH

 

Actually, Joseph, I don't disagree with you. Bolts should not be placed where natural gear will suffice nor should they exist in wilderness areas.

 

My point- however poorly made- is that a sneering dismissal of sport climbing is counter-productive. While you can take pride in your ethics, you should also recognize how you came upon them: you started climbing on gear. Most climbers now- especially in the rainy northwest- start climbing in a gym and their first forays onto rock are invariably bolt-protected. Your total rejection and refutation of their experience is not a good starting point for good- and I hate this term- dialogue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pdawg]

"To those of you that say there should be no limit, no boundaries, and that any bolt that creeps into a rock is then sacrosanct - I personally just can't imagine a more radical, activist, and in many ways clearly self-serving and self-fulfilling viewpoint. At just exactly what point is a bolt war and / or closure preferrable in every way to unrestrained bolting? Never, you say? Then we whole-heartedly disagree - I very much do have limits beyond which I feel any responsible 'Access Fund' should actually support closure before unrestrained bolting every single time" -JosephH

 

Actually, Joseph, I don't disagree with you. Bolts should not be placed where natural gear will suffice nor should they exist in wilderness areas.

 

My point- however poorly made- is that a sneering dismissal of sport climbing is counter-productive. While you can take pride in your ethics, you should also recognize how you came upon them: you started climbing on gear. Most climbers now- especially in the rainy northwest- start climbing in a gym and their first forays onto rock are invariably bolt-protected. Your total rejection and refutation of their experience is not a good starting point for good- and I hate this term- dialogue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Weekend_Climberz]

These cases sound pretty simple - they aren't sport crags are they? If not, and there is a bolt next to a finger / hand / whatever crack that takes pro, then it's bogus. If that straightforward, common sense test for determining where a bolt is legitimate or not then all of you who think I'm an extremist need to stop and look hard the next time you walk by a mirror. It doesn't matter a rip if who did it or if they got there first - it's flat out inappropriate and fair game for pulling.

 

In the Snow Creek Parking lot, there's a sign that has a bunch of rules on it for developing crags. One of the rules read something along the line of "Don't fucking bolts cracks you nimwits". I felt obliged to follow it just on principle. See, I'm a nimwit.

[DCramer]

Looks like my Index plans a for tomorrow are going down the drain due to weather. So this thread gave me an idea.

Here it is:

 

Blake and Fenderfour and myself meet in Monroe and drive over to Leavenworth . Blake gets to lead PoP using only the last two bolts. Fender gets to lead Straight Street using no bolts. Both claimed these routes safe on gear. Blake may have already lead PoP on gear. At times of my choosing I will yell “falling”. At which point the leader (Blake or Fender) will leap of the rock and test the validity of their claims. After Blake’s lead I will happily instruct him on bolt removal.

 

I have never seen Straight Street and my only experience in the Gun Club area was walking past on my way to Red Tide on a rainy day several years ago. I can barely remember the Gun Club area but I can remember a friend of mine, Dick, telling me PoP was a good route. I cannot remember him mentioning a bolted crack. Ron has told me that he has considered removing the bolts on Gun Club so I am not discounting the possibility that any of these routes might be bolted cracks but I am always suspicious of facts on cc.com and think it is easy to spray from the keyboard.

 

 

[tanstaafl]

Part of the attraction of sport-climbing is that the learning curve is immensely shallow, providing nearly immediate gratification. When compared with the effort it takes to learn to competently place removable gear, it's hard to compete with the cheap and safe seduction of "clip and go!", so the drills keep drilling to support the less complicated mode that appeals to the most people (despite its contradiction to an outdoors "leave little trace" philosophy that most, ironically, will likely agree to in theory if asked). But the people selling the gear love the big boost in sales to the instant "climbers"!

 

I wouldn't hand any of these guys a rack and tell them to go at it...there's a good chance that they'll misuse it or lose it, most likely scare themselves, and possibly hurt themselves.

How many of these sporto's would drop-out if they were required to spend the time learning to place and remove gear, set up anchors, assess risk, etc? Probably a lot, and I wouldn't miss a one of them.

 

I'm one of the hordes who learned in the gym, and allow me to assure you that the transition to climbing outside, climbing cracks, and placing gear was NOTHING like you seem to think. It was just not a big deal. It wasn't hard, it wasn't scary, it wasn't complicated. It was fun and while I wouldn't necessarily say "easy" it was just part of a continuum.

 

I read Climbing Anchors, I followed some pitches, I borrowed a rack, I went climbing. I found partners, sometimes ones who knew more than me. I started buying gear and assembling my own rack. I quit my job and moved into my car. All the standard stuff. None of it was a big deal.

 

Really, what did ya'll go through when you started climbing in the big bad outdoors that makes you remember it as so fucking hard?

 

And would *you* have stuck with climbing if you were "required" to do this or that? I think most of us like climbing because it's *not* regulated by a governing body.

 

[Weekend_Climberz]

I think most of us like climbing because it's *not* regulated by a governing body.

 

I think JoesephH and Raindawgy-dawg are arguing that this is the direction it is headed, eventually its going to have to be regulated like Hueco, or shut down in some cases. It doesn't matter if you think it's trash. People who don't climb but make laws instead see it as unacceptable, especially since we can't even agree on it.

[JosephH]

I think the truth on the transition from sport to trad is somewhere in the middle. I do see some incredibly bad attempts every now and then and I see cross-overs dogging on gear placements like they were bolts which can be dangerous if not checked and possibly reset after each and everytime you weight them.

 

But for someone with reasonable logic and spatial skills it shouldn't be rocket science. You can definitely learn it on your own even if having a mentor is by far the preferrable way to go. I do mentor folks wanting to learn trad and enjoy it. It's part of giving what was given to me. Talking down to people as individuals and giving them no assistance or alternatives when they ask for them is entirely counter-productive.

[Sherri]

I'm one of the hordes who learned in the gym, and allow me to assure you that the transition to climbing outside, climbing cracks, and placing gear was NOTHING like you seem to think. It was just not a big deal. It wasn't hard, it wasn't scary, it wasn't complicated. It was fun and while I wouldn't necessarily say "easy" it was just part of a continuum.

 

I read Climbing Anchors, I followed some pitches, I borrowed a rack, I went climbing. I found partners, sometimes ones who knew more than me. I started buying gear and assembling my own rack. I quit my job and moved into my car. All the standard stuff. None of it was a big deal.

 

Really, what did ya'll go through when you started climbing in the big bad outdoors that makes you remember it as so fucking hard?

 

And would *you* have stuck with climbing if you were "required" to do this or that? I think most of us like climbing because it's *not* regulated by a governing body.

 

[JosephH]

I think JoesephH and Raindawgy-dawg are arguing that this is the direction it is headed...

 

I explicitly don't want to see it be regulated, BUT, over the past 25 years the only places I've seen bolting moderated or constrained in any successful way is on private land and under the tight control of land managers. If sport climbers can't control themselves then, yes, I'm going to hope it gets more regulated to protect pristine rock.

 

As an aside, I see some fools shot the last two White Rhinos in Zambia killing one. I'm sure if you asked a hunter or Zambian 40 years ago if there was a problem with the indiscriminant killing of Rhinos I would bet a lot would have said "we'll never kill them all." At least you can chop a route and have half a chance of restoring it. However, I personally find the mentality of consumption precisely the same in both cases.

[matt_warfield]

Part of the attraction of cams is that the learning curve is immensely shallow, providing nearly immediate gratification. When compared with the effort it takes to learn to competently place passive pro , it's hard to compete with the cheap and safe seduction of " plug and go ", so the cams keep being plugged to support the less complicated mode that appeals to the most people.....

 

I wouldn't hand any of these guys a rack of only passive pro and tell them to go at it...there's a good chance that they'll misuse it or lose it, most likely scare themselves, and possibly hurt themselves.

How many of these cam pluggers would drop-out if they were required to spend the time learning to place and remove passive only gear, set up anchors, assess risk, etc? Probably a lot, and I wouldn't miss a one of them.

 

I have tinkered with Raindawg's post to make a point. Let us not forget (which I'm sure Raindawg has not), how much camming devices changed the trad game. Lots of folks thought Jardine was cheating when he introduced Yosemite to Friends.

 

[ZONK]

OK so the Horse is dead, STFU and go Climb now ! You all might feel better !

 

[Alpinfox]

Wait!

 

I think I saw it's tail flinch!

[fenderfour]

Looks like my Index plans a for tomorrow are going down the drain due to weather. So this thread gave me an idea.

Here it is:

 

Blake and Fenderfour and myself meet in Monroe and drive over to Leavenworth . Blake gets to lead PoP using only the last two bolts. Fender gets to lead Straight Street using no bolts. Both claimed these routes safe on gear. Blake may have already lead PoP on gear. At times of my choosing I will yell “falling”. At which point the leader (Blake or Fender) will leap of the rock and test the validity of their claims. After Blake’s lead I will happily instruct him on bolt removal.

 

I have never seen Straight Street and my only experience in the Gun Club area was walking past on my way to Red Tide on a rainy day several years ago. I can barely remember the Gun Club area but I can remember a friend of mine, Dick, telling me PoP was a good route. I cannot remember him mentioning a bolted crack. Ron has told me that he has considered removing the bolts on Gun Club so I am not discounting the possibility that any of these routes might be bolted cracks but I am always suspicious of facts on cc.com and think it is easy to spray from the keyboard.

 

 

 

I would be game. Give me some time to mine the crack. It's full of dirt, bushes and grass. This is probably why the climb was bolted.

 

Since you have suggested this plan, I expect help cleaning the main crack.

 

[DCramer]

If the crack is one route. I have crack tools. If the crack is not where the route is I'll call bullshit from the start. After all you didnt claim the route is a squeeze job but rather a bolted crack. Traversing off route to the left and right won't cut it.

 

[fenderfour]

Cool. You can teach me some tricks of route development.

 

It's not a squeeze job. The crack is choked with shit almost it's entire length. I'm pretty sure it would be an FA for the crack. The crack is wide hands, maybe a little OW, but it's a low angle slab. The bolts are about 2' to the right.

 

I'm willing to clean and lead, but I'm not willing to chop. I stay out of that sort of thing.

[Raindawg]

I have tinkered with Raindawg's post to make a point. Let us not forget (which I'm sure Raindawg has not), how much camming devices changed the trad game. Lots of folks thought Jardine was cheating when he introduced Yosemite to Friends.

 

Thanks for the interesting historical perspective. The difference with Friends, though, is (unless you they're wrongly placed or "walk"), is that they're removable and don't leave a permanent mess.

 

[Raindawg]

OK so the Horse is dead, STFU and go Climb now ! You all might feel better !

 

If you don't like the commentary, find another topic to read, or better yet, why don't YOU go climbing NOW so you can forget all about the "dead horse".

By the way, "the horse" isn't dead......not even close.

[Raindawg]

Joseph has done a great service by posting the bolt removal and very importantly, RESTORATION, instructions above.

 

A question for Joseph: is it possible to mix in crushed sand or other small particles of the local rock in the expoxy to provide a more natural color and texture?

 

In a more enlightened future, perhaps all sport-routes will be erased and restored, ideally by the people who established them.