Infinite Bliss chopped- true or false?

[RuMR]

methinks that anyone who climbs "harder" than joseph is free to do what they wish...this standard is only upward in application; however...

 

everyone else who climbs "easier" than joseph had better subscribe to his beliefs...

 

its really quite simple...a thing of beauty, no?

[G-spotter]

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

 

Seems like the Germans and Austrians manage to put up multipitch 14's on lead ground up. I guess that means the Prussik crew failed.

[hawkeye69]

well, i am glad that i was not the only one to see healyje's double standard.

 

i apologize for all my earlier spray and editing but the points remain the same.

 

healyje does not espouse a truly groundup std or he would not be so willing to think rapp bolting on prusik is alright.

 

like i said earlier, i dont much give a rats ass there is one rapp bolt up there, but fair is fair., call it what it is.

 

healyje, have you ever done the nose?

 

as mattp indicated the nose has only been done with chipped holds. i didnt go that way instead opting for the gumby bolt ladder to the boot. it was difficult for me to see that the holds were chipped.

 

certainly, nobody on this site is saying that chipped holds are ok for short stretches, say if you are lynn hill or tommy caldwell. i hope healyje is not saying that.

 

fact is healyje, you are saying that the means justify the end if you climb at a certain level.

 

that is a double standard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_noggin]

Edited June 13, 2007 by richard_noggin

[richard_noggin]

Edited June 13, 2007 by richard_noggin

[ivan]

OK I have had a few or more than a few and I am feed up and on overboil, you think the guy who set IB did it for ego welll your wrong ,this guy is first class ,I look for his routes quality to say the least,all that work so you can dis him...well phuk you!!! I stick by quality people and you who dis him have not done shit for me...hey I only have climbed at that butt plug once....try to own another crag phuk head.... what the phuk have the the resst of you done for me?Go ahead spray you shit take ethics...stick that butt plug along the columbia up yuour

you have pisssssed off the wrong MOFO

DICK :fahq:and up your

see dick. see dick get angry. see dick get big. see dick throw up.

[richard_noggin]

Edited June 13, 2007 by richard_noggin

[Raindawg]

 

This "discussion" has turned away from the topic: from the legitimacy of "Infinite Bliss" and its future, to a hypocrisy attack on Joseph. How about less of that and more about why the route may very well disappear?

 

In climbing you get nothing other than what you absolutely deserve.

 

In this case, the offenders might be asked to clean up the mess they made or someone else might do it for them.

climbing is fun .....just stop!!!!!!!!Climb the sh*t!!!!!!

 

I suppose the sh*t you're referring to is "Infinite Bliss", which is reminiscent of dogs crapping in a public park.

 

What this topic is showing is that the issue of this "route" remains UNRESOLVED, despite what the "Washington Climbers Coalition" or whoever would like folks to think.

 

P.S. As an aside: for all of you who think you're extra-special and can just do whatever, wherever you like because you're a "climber", check out the small, satirical topic in "Spray" called "Watch Out World! Here comes climbers!".

 

[hawkeye69]

raindawg,

 

i am just curious as to the basis of wanting to remove the route.

 

the only REG i see that may have been violated was powerdrilling.

 

if you are against rappel placed bolts and want to make an impact, go start at smith.

 

you will create much more excitement....

 

and dont freaking forget about the bolt on prusik.

[richard_noggin]

Edited June 13, 2007 by richard_noggin

[ivan]

"our vibrations were turning nasty - but why? was there no communication in this car? had we descended to the level of mere beasts?"

 

-hunter s thompson

[Raindawg]

raindawg,

 

i am just curious as to the basis of wanting to remove the route.

 

the only REG i see that may have been violated was powerdrilling.

 

if you are against rappel placed bolts and want to make an impact, go start at smith.

 

you will create much more excitement....

 

and dont freaking forget about the bolt on prusik.

 

Smith Rocks is already ruined. Someday, when the climbing "community" matures, they might wake up and see the mess they made and fix it.

 

The legality of I.B. is only part of the issue. My views go beyond the powerdrill and what the law "lets" you do....bolts should be rare everywhere and it makes me ill to see long trails of them make there way from the crags to the mountains. This should not be allowed. You can look at this a couple of ways: you might see the bolts on I.B. as an act of creation or some sort of "art" that feeds your craving for adventure. I, on the other hand, see their removal as an act of restoration, i.e., picking up the selfish litter left by others.

 

 

I defend my friend and the climber that put up routes for me!!! want a piss'n contest

Real life me and you ??

You f*ck'n asssh*les have brought it to this ,and I have had eniought....what the f*ck have you assh*les done for me, quality routes that I think are classsics ...I don't think sooo kiss my

I got friends do'n that route soon if they find a chop fest and get hurt I will be look'n for you

 

Know your cc.com history? Seems to me that Captain Caveman and company got booted off here for making threats. Ain't a place for it here.

 

Gary Busey might just say, "Tone it down, eh Sparky?"

 

 

 

 

 

[high_on_rock]

ah,Raindeer is merely feeling left out, everyone is treating Joseph like a rebel, and Raindeer wants to be the rebel. Let's all tell Raindeer that he is a rebel too so that he doesn't feel left out.

[AlpineK]

I would just like to say that I can't even make it through all the posting.

 

I grew up trad climbing, and trad climbing is what gives me the most pride in having done. That being said I've done a number of sport climbs that were fun, but if somebody ask me to come up with a list of my favorite climbs the sporty ones would be very low on the list.

 

If somebody wants to give IB the chop then go right ahead. If it doesn't get chopped then someday I may climb it, but I don't care either way.

[Raindawg]

ah,Raindeer is merely feeling left out, everyone is treating Joseph like a rebel, and Raindeer wants to be the rebel. Let's all tell Raindeer that he is a rebel too so that he doesn't feel left out.

 

Aren't you tired of your "rebel" routine? It's as worn-out as kevbone's repetitive "it's all about ego" mantra. Seems like you're the one looking for attention here, mister.

If you don't like what I have to say....IGNORE the posts that say, "Raindawg". It's your choice.

 

You got anything of substance to say about the Infinite Bliss controversy? No? Maybe the spray section will meet your needs better.

[dmuja]

I got friends do'n that route soon if they find a chop fest and get hurt I will be look'n for you

 

Monsieur Noggin,

 

Yul fwends weel be safe, I am ciltan of eet.... if zay doo not fall!

 

Zay ahr climayaz ahr zay not?

 

In Fwench, oui say "climbing iz zee ought of naught fawling"

 

Zoes zhat fawl becawz zay have enjoyed too much "le ought of fawlink on le bolt" oui call zem "le fawluers".

 

Zayer ahr too many of "le fawluers" and not enouf "le climayaz" oui oui?

[richard_noggin]

Moma pissed... stop and stay off the sprayboard

[marylou]

Is it the bolt that matters, or the way the bolt was put in. When I climb a route and encounter a bolt, I really don’t care if it was hand drilled or power drilled

 

High_on_rock, you make a pretty good point, but let me ask you this? IF the FA team that put up IB had known it was in the wilderness (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) and IF they had been willing to respect the rules that apply to wilderness bolting, WOULD they have put up 20-something pitches by hand? If the answer is yes, well, I applaud them, but if the answer is no, the route should not exist. I think you and I have spoken enough offline that you see where I'm coming from with this.

[JosephH]

I wonder, too: has there been a free ascent of The Nose that didn't follow the (chipped) Jardine Traverse?

 

Matt and Hawk, there is no doubt whatsoever that Jardine's chopped traverse made the free climb of the Nose [in totality] a possibility even though he was and is widely panned for having done it. That said, it's still an irreversible "damage done" deal. Neither of the folks party to the FFA would have chipped the traverse to have accomplished the FFA and I don't believe any subsequent [free] party or parties would ever either. It was a clear mistake borne of an obsession, but one that can not, as opposed to should not, be undone.

 

The Nose also would not have been free climbed without a couple of rap-placed bolts and rap-removed pins. These decisions were entirely discretionary on the part of the later teams attempting to free climb the route. Would I have done it - no, I would have aided those stretches and I wouldn't use the chipped traverse either. But as a result, had I ever so aspired, no one would ever regard such a climb a 'free' ascent. Not a problem for me, but for folks gunning for the FFA, their call to resort to exactly the same 'methods of last resort' as the FA team were theirs to make or the Nose would likely never have been freed (and ditto for recent free/aid controversies on WFLT).

 

And no, I haven't climbed the Nose, but there is no difference whatsoever between the last pitch of the Nose and the last pitch of the line on Prusik, in deed or method. So again - for me - whatever I think of those two pitches and routes, I am ethically bound to think exactly the same of both; they're either both legitimate in the context of those FFA attempts at the edge of the possible, or they're both bogus and not worthy of an FFA designation. I'm not prepared to call Brooke and Lynn's FFA effort on the Nose bogus and that unalterably leads me to the exact same assessment of the Prusik line.

 

There is no appreciable difference between them at all. And if I hear you correctly Hawk, along with the Prusik line, you clearly do not recognize any 'free' ascent of the Nose. And hey, there are people in the Valley who look at it sideways too, so you're not entirely alone. I'm just not prepared to go there and make that judgment and that's in part because I would have come down on the other side of those calls - but only for myself, at that same time and place.

 

Also, outside of Creek splitters and the odd short pitch here or there, the world of straightup, multipitch .13 and .14 trad climbing is rarely pure or without pre-cleaning and pre-inspection. Not many free, groundup, onsight trad 14's go down to say nothing of free, groundup, onsight trad 14 FAs. I'm not so quick to rush to judgment at the bleeding edge where trad - for short stretches - necessarily gives way in one form or another to what I call "sprad". Containing "sprad effects" at the bleeding edge of trad climbing to me means giving absolutley the least quarter possible to any and all methods and techniques which dilute a pure, clean, trad ascent.

 

But I also recognize there are limits to free climbing - the odds of seeing free, ground up onsight trad 5.16 FA's is pretty damn slim no matter how much you want to look backwards and say "but 5.11 was the top end just xxx years ago". As far as free climbing is concerned - somewhere out there right at the limits we are rapidly closing in on - trad, sprad, sport, pre-placing, pre-inspection, pre-cleaning, etc., etc. all start to bleed into "can a human climb it free in any style, period" - again, much like at an event horizon or when humans play chess against computers.

 

And that is my personal view - that there is a boiling ethical event horizon operating at all times at the very bleeding edge of climbing in all disciplines and just because something may happen there, I no way support the idea that means there is any legitimate ethical grounds, or wholesale carte blanche, to back-propogate it down to every 5.6 in the land. That in no way means 'anything goes' or that anything is 'acceptable' on that bleeding edge in my view - but it's at that bleeding edge where evolution occurs - and exactly because of that, what does occur there should be looked at hard before being simply turned loose into the wild. Jardine's traverse is a good example of one that did not survive the cut on inspection.

 

From what I can tell, the difference between me and a lot of you folks is, that for me there is an evaluative ethical boundary which lives instantly behind the bleeding edge and the rules that apply there (like an event horizon) don't necessarily immediately apply to the entire known universe outside of it. Whereas for a lot of you folks, anytime anything happens at the bleeding edge you do want instant, unexamined ethical carte blanche to apply the same technique the next day to your pet 5.10, and the next guy to the 5.8 he's developing out of the goodness of his heart in an unselfish act of 'community service'.

 

Rap-bolting is exactly such a method to me - my preference by far would have been that rap-bolting have never escaped into the wild of climbs of a lower grade then the practice was initially developed for. I'm no fan of bolting, period - lead, rap, power, hand - I consider them at best an occasional necessary evil. The use of them to push the boundaries of difficulty in climbing I get and can grudgingly accept; the use of them to simply to provide access to suburban hordes I do not.

 

For me it isn't a matter of elitism - it's a matter of believing some things that happen at the bleeding edge should at times stay at that grade and not instantly back-propogate all the way down to 5.6's. I admit it's an inherently different perspective, but one I've held for thirty-three years of climbing and I'm not going to change it now. And by those measures I still consider the line on Prusik a stellar trad and free climbing route. IB on the otherhand - entirely aside from the land management and legal issues - is, for me, a one-ride alpine theme park conceived and put up by people who simply do not know the difference.

 

[mattp]

We may or may not be seeing the magnificant culmination of hundreds of years of climbing development in the attainment of 5.15 or whatever but even if such remarkable physical performance is a thing of glory that may never be surpassed, I'm surprised you wouldn't hold such athletes to a HIGHER standard, not a lower one.

 

In most other areas of sport, the top echelon are expected to be pure - though of course we've seen drug scandals in baseball and cycling - and in many areas of sport the equipment is regulated down to the minutae to assure they are competing on "equal footing." In golf, for example, it is not the pro's who get to take the handicap. Can anybody say it was really NECESSARY to rap bolt on El Capitan so that magnificant deeds can be accomplished? What really was the value of this, and what was the statement they were making? Isn't El Cap, the greatest icon of American rock climbing, and the first ascent route in particular, the shrine of American rock if there ever was one?

 

I'm not really attacking the accomplishments of these very gifted and dedicated climbers, but I'm curious about this idea that they deserve to employ practices that should be forbidden to lesser climbers.

[kevbone]

Right on JH……let us know when you climb the route on gear! But it has to be the route…..not 20 feet left or 20 feet right. Keep to the bolt line and don’t clip any bolts.

 

Let us know how it went.

 

bone

 

[billcoe]

My question is this: if someone were to remove the origonal IB bolts, would you who dislike that route consider a community replacement project to do onsite ground up hand drilling to re-establish the route off limits as well?

 

 

Raindawg: this question to you yet remains: are you currently working on removing the traces of mankind which are still being put in in Mt Rainer National Park? Cause you can see that shizzel from the moon, and yet you cannot see a single one of those (The Horror)transgressor IB bolts in a close up picture I stole from Dave Burdick and posted earlier.

[hawkeye69]

And no, I haven't climbed the Nose, but there is no difference whatsoever between the last pitch of the Nose and the last pitch of the line on Prusik, in deed or method.

 

 

There is no appreciable difference between them at all. And if I hear you correctly Hawk, along with the Prusik line, you clearly do not recognize any 'free' ascent of the Nose.

 

joe, the last pitch of the Nose is a bolt ladder and I am sure you heard the story where Harding drilled all night long on lead to reach the top. note, nobody threw him a rope and said come on up and rest you can complete it later. therein lies the difference.

 

the talented climbers freeing big walls in yosemite are sometimes resorting to tactics and style that are outside of "traditional" means IMHO. i think they did free it, but if the TRed it and put in rapp bolts, it was not done by traditional means.

 

i just think that my definition of what traditional means is different than many. these days people use it to denote a gear climb. where i climbed on runout slabs in the 70's and 80's bolts were a requirement. we still headed into the unknown without a TR. that was the whole point.

 

i dont know anything about the route or the guys on prusik. what i do know is that it is in the center of a wilderness area and rapp bolting is not a common event in any wilderness.

 

thereby the only difference between them and IB is quantity adn the means of placing them (?). I dont have much issue either way, but i am tired of people spraying about how bad one is and not the other.

 

my question is, "is it acceptable to rapp bolt in wilderness areas?"

 

pretty simple really. what i get from joes answer is sometimes.

 

[JosephH]

Right on JH……let us know when you climb the route on gear! But it has to be the route…..not 20 feet left or 20 feet right. Keep to the bolt line and don’t clip any bolts.

 

Kevin, fortunately that isn't how or why I climb. The IB 'developers' didn't hold to the original line - I don't intend to hold to either of them. You entirely misconstrue the intent of my outing - I intend to stand at the start of it and treat it like it's never been climbed and let the rock speak to the line on its own...

[mattp]

There certainly is a difference between climbs that are entirely or mostly bolt-protected, and those which have the occasional bolt; and as to heavily bolted climbs there is a difference between climbs that are "sport-bolted" and those which may be more sparsely bolted. Part of Joseph's initial point, which perhaps has been minimized through this discussion, was that he felt these great climbers were showing more restraint in this respect than their less gifted breathren. I am not sure that, as a rule, that assumption holds up. Certainly, though, there is a lot of crack protected climbing on The Nose and on Prussik Peak.