JosephH Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Well said everyone.....but the fact remains if you chop a bolt someone else placed.....no matter why or where they placed it....it is out of ego. End of story. End of story, Kevin? Just how is it you arrived at this idea that any bolt that gets weasled into rock is somehow sacrosanct? Ego? I can't think of many more audacious acts of ego than placing a bolt. If one were to run your logic out you could say the same thing about removing graffiti. But just which is the more willful expression of ego - the graffiti or the removal...? I see no difference whatsoever given both bolting and graffiti deface a surface and it's a pain in the ass to restore either to its original condition once the deed is done. Removing bolts in many instances is simply a community service no different than removing graffiti. They're both a case of 'art' being in the eye of the beholder. Don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for both bolts and graffiti, but when they end up everywhere and indiscriminantly just because someone likes to see their own spray it can become highly problematic and require remedial action. Quote
TREETOAD Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 This thread should be moved to the climbers board, can't you people keep things straight?? What is Kev going to say!! Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 There's quite a few intersections on the path from climbing a route with a bolted crack to rap-bolting another crack that would prevent such an income in any remotely plausible scenario. The specter of the "Bosch-Toting-Crack-Bolting-Newbie-Hordes-From-Hell" is so far-fetched it would make the average urban legend blush. Can anyone point to a single crack in Washington that's fallen prey to the dreaded bolt-happy newb? :LMAO: assworked just got worked... Why do I have to waste my time explaining posts that you didn't even read. I never said that I knew of bolted cracks in Washington. I said that if there were any, then newbs would eventually bolt the rest of them because they wouldn't know any better. Quote
JayB Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 In Europe, the limestone is pretty much only bolt protected at the crags and you can fall a really really long way... can you say "regional ethics" ruMR? Or are you conversing in JayB? Didn't realize that we were fretting over Eurostone here. Quote
JayB Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 There's quite a few intersections on the path from climbing a route with a bolted crack to rap-bolting another crack that would prevent such an income in any remotely plausible scenario. The specter of the "Bosch-Toting-Crack-Bolting-Newbie-Hordes-From-Hell" is so far-fetched it would make the average urban legend blush. Can anyone point to a single crack in Washington that's fallen prey to the dreaded bolt-happy newb? :LMAO: assworked just got worked... Why do I have to waste my time explaining posts that you didn't even read. I never said that I knew of bolted cracks in Washington. I said that if there were any, then newbs would eventually bolt the rest of them because they wouldn't know any better. How many routes is anyone aware of that have been installed by rank beginners? I'm talking sport-lines here, not even the mythical grid-bolted crack. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Beginner is a relative term. How about beginners in ethics. Quote
billcoe Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 look my original point was this: everyone talks about which climbs should be chopped. and what's wrong with HOW it was bolted. no one ever seems to say why they think bolting, in general, is a bad thing. Now Minx, that is a better layout than your origonal post, thanks for adding some data. But don't make me go dredge up 20 pages from the last 5 years on CC.com alone of Dwayner and Pope explaining the how, why, and whats describing why all bolts are bad. I don't agree with those dudes, I clip bolts. Sometimes I even put them in. I suspect that they are getting worn down from endlessly repeating themselves, like you have asked them to do again. It was this very subject which got Dwayer banned from the site too. BUT- I'd rather discuss the endless nuances with everyone next time I'm drunk, around a campfire. Cause I pretty much agree a lot with G-spooter and Joseph too. Quote
ashw_justin Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 How about those new bolts on the summit of SEWS, the S Arete of SEWS, and the WF NEWS? Who put those there and why did they think it was okay? True or False: the widespread modern paradigm of bolted sport climbing has encouraged people to put up alpine sport climbs by illegally installing hundreds of bolts in protected areas? Quote
cj001f Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 In Europe, the limestone is pretty much only bolt protected at the crags and you can fall a really really long way... can you say "regional ethics" ruMR? Or are you conversing in JayB? Didn't realize that we were fretting over Eurostone here. It started because people were fretting over the Compressor route in Patagonia and there are alot more Euros climbing down there with Euro ethics than Gringos my new fear is pipsqeak knobjockeys Quote
RuMR Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 that's right that you'd better fear my fat ass squashing you! Quote
kevbone Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Define ego. Unless by ego you mean "doing something that you think is right." What makes chopping a bolt any more egotistical than placing one? Again- chopping unneeded bolts has the effect of making people realize that they were not necessary. This realization leads to less bolting of other pristine rock in the future. For example if you allow even a single protectable crack to remain bolted, climbers who don't know any better will assume that all cracks like it should be bolted. Eventually there is a bolt ladder all the way up Outer Space, or the Nose, or -insert your favorite rock climb here-. Very much ego to say they were not nessasary. And to prove to someone else that they were not nessasary buy chopping them is all about your ego. " I dont need this bolt. I can run it out". Is all ego bro. Anyway you slice it. Quote
kevbone Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 I'm not the first one to have said it, and I won't be the last. I think you are underestimating the power of youthful ignorance. Hypothetically, one man's selfish desire to bolt cracks could turn into a legion of newbs who assume that all climbs are supposed to be bolted, despite the unnecessary permanent damage. Before you know it everyone has an alpine power drill on the rack instead of clean pro. What about just too many bolts on a face? If you chop you have ego problems. Quote
kevbone Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Well said everyone.....but the fact remains if you chop a bolt someone else placed.....no matter why or where they placed it....it is out of ego. End of story. End of story, Kevin? Just how is it you arrived at this idea that any bolt that gets weasled into rock is somehow sacrosanct? Ego? I can't think of many more audacious acts of ego than placing a bolt. If one were to run your logic out you could say the same thing about removing graffiti. But just which is the more willful expression of ego - the graffiti or the removal...? I see no difference whatsoever given both bolting and graffiti deface a surface and it's a pain in the ass to restore either to its original condition once the deed is done. Removing bolts in many instances is simply a community service no different than removing graffiti. They're both a case of 'art' being in the eye of the beholder. Don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for both bolts and graffiti, but when they end up everywhere and indiscriminantly just because someone likes to see their own spray it can become highly problematic and require remedial action. JH…Over bolting is generally a lack of ego. You know….too scared to run it out…..so just throw another bolt in. So let’s say I bolt a climb up a wall that ends up being a mixed route. Some gear…..some bolts. I bolt what I deem necessary. The next guy come out and thinks my bolting job is ridiculous. So he/she proceeds to chop a few of them stating, they were unnecessary. Well who is to say what is necessary, and what is not for a climb I put up? That persons ego was talking huge there. Just because he wants to “run it out” does not mean I want to. Ego…plain and simple. When ever I hear the term “that climb is over bolted”….especially on a climbs I have climbed and disagree on….. All I see in that climber is ego speaking. Are they trying to say they would prefer to “run it out”? WTF. Quote
cj001f Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 that's right that you'd better fear my fat ass squashing you! I heard you were joining The View to replace Rosie Quote
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Anyone want to help me bolt and chip this new route at 38? Quote
RuMR Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 that's right that you'd better fear my fat ass squashing you! I heard you were joining The View to replace Rosie ?? Quote
pope Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Bring the hilti-armed newbie hordes grid-bolting line after line and you've drifted into the realm of fantasy. This is not a problem. This is not even a potential problem worth worrying about. What? Never been to Vantage? Quote
pope Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Minx....to answer your original question.....the point of chopping bolts is pure and simple.....ego....nothing more. PS ....nice troll And yet chopping often gets done without ceremony and parade. Often we never learn who did the deed. If it were ego motivating choppers, it seems natural that they would want some recognition for their deeds. It could be that choppers see bolting as: (1) removing an important component of the challenges climbing traditionally offered. Bolts take the sport out of climbing (one of life's little ironies). (2) alien to the "rock-scape" and therefore an unwelcome compromise to the visual aesthetics of climbing rock walls. (3) applied with little or no restraint, increasingly on old, bold leads and increasingly next to cracks. Quote
NTM Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 Anyone want to help me bolt and chip this new route at 38? only if i can screw in some gym holds. Quote
kevbone Posted June 3, 2007 Posted June 3, 2007 And yet chopping often gets done without ceremony and parade. Often we never learn who did the deed. If it were ego motivating choppers, it seems natural that they would want some recognition for their deeds. Ceremony and parade five of six posts down Dirty harries brag about chopping the route. I do not believe in bolting cracks. Quote
pink Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 i love to chop bolts. does there really need to be a point? Quote
JayB Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Bring the hilti-armed newbie hordes grid-bolting line after line and you've drifted into the realm of fantasy. This is not a problem. This is not even a potential problem worth worrying about. What? Never been to Vantage? I seem to recall names like Yoder, Pogue, Windham, Massey, Kerns, Collum, etc associated with the bolted lines out there. Don't think these folks fall into the category we're discussing here. Quote
JosephH Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Kevin, is it then also ego under your rubric if the person you disagree with believes you under-bolted the route and they add bolts - is that ego or did you just inherit the ego for bolting a route bolder than the next guy? Maybe the guy who thinks it's over-bolted simply had a life situation such that he was able to hone his skills, craft, and lead head such that he genuinely felt it was over-bolted for the grade and what the route offered. Is that really ego or a difference of opinion? Sounds like you're saying taking action on such a difference of opinion either way - bolting or chopping - is a matter of ego. To some extent taking responsibility for your own actions does require some degree of ego, I'll admit. Over on rc.com, though, 'Fracture' just wrote about 10,000 words in a thread on how it is actually a matter of duty-bound 'community service'. Quote
kevbone Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Over on rc.com, though, 'Fracture' just wrote about 10,000 words in a thread on how it is actually a matter of duty-bound 'community service'. Good for him. Quote
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