Are beacons a body recovery tool?

[wdietsch]

"Why can I get a digital cell phone for $69 but a digital avalache beacon costs $300+"

not only is it the zillion phone that are out there it is also like the printer for your computer, the money (profit) is in the consumables, in this case the month service/network access fee

[bellemontagne]

Probably the best things to take into the backcountry with you are avalanche education, experience forecasting and examining snowpack conditions, the willingness to back off of a route, and a competent buddy with the same training and experience.

I had an avalanche instructor tell me that in all his years of spending time in "avalanche terrain," he has been in an avalanche only once! He was skiing with a buddy, and he allowed his friend to persuade him into continue on even though HE KNEW the snowpack was unstable. He did not listen to his gut. Sure enough, the slope failed. Luckily, they were able to ski out of it without any injuries. He examined the snowpack but he simply failed to listen to his gut and accept the snowpack was highly unstable.

Maybe I am being too simplistic, but if people educated themselves, had experience forecasting avalanches, examined the snowpack, and backed off when conditions were high, it seems like we would have far fewer human triggered avalanches.

[Crack]

i would highly recommend some sort of avalanche training and all the proper accesories (beacons, probe, and shovel) for anyone who spends time in the backcountry. as some of you who've done some training have noticed, 85% of the level I course is spent learning how to forecast and avoid them...human error provides the greatest statistic. the tools/toys which go along with your knowledge are in fact merely for recovery, and depending on the situation and your efficiency -could prove to be life-saving. roughly 90% of recoveries are made within the first 15 minutes, the numbers rapidly dissolve soon after. i've been on a few searches working with search and rescue, something i chose to be a part of after i lost a roomate and close friend to one. he left a pair of beacons sitting on his bed and was skiing alone. i have also been a part of SAR's where victims were recovered alive -our lives are worth far more than some cabbage and gravel. be smart at having fun, shit can go sour pretty quickly.

btw, too all who know me as the bum that i think i chose to be, this isn't a plug to sell my peeps -but an issue i really do feel strongly about.

[climb]

fyi, here is a report of a successful recovery using beacons:

http://www.avsp.org/avalanche.htm

[Norm]

While I whole-hartedly agree that not taking chances and not getting caught is the best defense against avalanches, and that considering avy beacons as a body recovery device is not a bad beginning premise, consider this. If you or your partner is not FUBAR’d by trauma from getting maytagged down the slope and not buried so deep that they’re crushed by the snow, and did manage to keep their mouth from filling with snow, they have about 10 minutes of air. A beacon could make the difference between life and death. Think of them as seatbelts in a car. Just because you’re wearing one doesn’t mean you’re going to survive a heinous wreck, but it does improve your chances. The one mitigating point is that beacons require constant and vigilant practice. Just because you took a course two years ago doesn’t mean you’re good now. You should practice regularly (several times a season and against a clock. Try and get down to less than 5 minutes. All that being said. Make smart choices and don’t get caught

[hakioawa]

Here is quote:

"The figures generally show that about 90% of avalanche victims are alive after 5 minutes but that at 30 min less than 50% are. The odds of surviving burial are less than 50%, so it would appear that most are not being recovered quick enough."

That means that if you are unburied within 5 minutes you are 5 times more likely to survive than if it takes half an hour. And given that it takes a skilled team several hours to do a coarse grid probe of a 2 acre field, I'd say a beacon is worth its weight in gold in the hands of a skilled user.

Granted the best way to survive an avalanche is not to get into one. And training is the best way to do this. But once you are caught in an avalanche all your avalanche adoidance training is moot.

Get a beacon, probe and shovel. And practice!

[Freeman]

Slaphappy posed a very good question asking if any of us had any experience with either being located using a transceiver or "saving" someone else. As seems so typical of this forum, most of the responses were the childish smart-assed wise cracks that we have come to expect from many of the regular "contributors". However, here are some real experiences.

A few years ago three of us were skiing the hill sides above town when one skier triggered a slide. We were all wearing beacons and carrying probes and shovels. Fortunately there were visual clues to the location of the victim and I was able to start digging within probably two minutes (time flies...). I uncovered his face - he had a weak pulse and I could detect a faint breath with my bare hand, his lips were blue and face was bluish grey. He was face down and took several (maybe 5?) more minutes to dig out to the point that I could have turned him over to do CPR had it been necessary. There was no trauma altho one leg was bent up over his back (the ski was still on). He was lucky that there were visual clues - had a beacon search been required it would have added two or three minutes to the rescue, but I am convinced that I still would have found him in time. Without beacons and with no visual clues it would have taken several hours for the two of us to probe for his body.

The same year a patroller in bounds in our local area was buried and located with his beacon. He was dug out alive, but ironically was reburied and killed by a second slide.

A few weeks ago we were standing at the base of a local ice climb that is a notorious avalache gulley and I asked a couple of newbies with their shiny new tools if they were wearing transceivers. One said, "no, why". I pointed out that he was standing on the top of the avalache cone and that I had been buried in that very spot some years ago. We belayed from the safety of an outcrop next to the cone.

Each year I do a week long back country tour in B.C. with a guide who is one of the Rogers Pass avalanche control people (I would consider him one of the few avalanche "experts" in the Northwest). Do we wear beacons - absolutely; do we practice with beacons - of course; if your lady friend were skiing with us would she be wearing a beacon - damn right she would be. In fact, I would probably give her the digital beacon because she might be searching for ME.

Slap, a final note - as one who occasionally gets to go out and rescue the injured and retrive those who don't make it - you and your friend would make our work much easier by wearing a transceiver if you do get snuffed - probing for a body is no fun at all.

[Marcus_Engley]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Winter:

An avalung ain't going to do you no good unless your wearing a beacon so your buddy can find you and dig you out. Gotta' wear a beacon if you're going to be out there.

---

Yup, that's why I said I play in the backcountry often enough to warrant the purchase and use of them.

Freeman: Given the amount of spray some threads get, I think this one has been tame. Anyway, good points all, and I totally agree with your approach.

m

[slaphappy]

Thanks Freeman! You are one of two people who did actually answer my original question, although there was some other useful information along the way. It's funny I have been hiking with my board since 1985 (Wa,Co,Ny) and until this year I didn't feel the need to carry a beacon. I believe my change of opinion was not brought on by that particular slide (I never really felt "in danger") but by the thought of burying a loved one and living with the memory. I have worn one a half dozen or so times out of respect for a partner who requested I do, but will be making one part of my standard from here on out.

[b-rock]

Hey Freeman - shut the frick up with your whiny attitude. There was plenty of good, on topic info along the way. BTW, thanks for the post!

Slaphappy - You say the slope was tree covered. How dense were the trees?

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: b-rock ]

[Dennis_the_Menace]

I wear a 14' aluminum ladder ala Vern Tejas

[vegetablebelay]

And don't forget your avalanche balloon!

http://www.provinz.bz.it/avalanche/ski8e.htm

[allthumbs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by b-rock:

Hey Freeman - shut the frick up with your whiny attitude. There was plenty of good, on topic info along the way.

---

...crawl back under your rock, Butt Rock. Freeman's shit was good. Live and learn duffass.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: trask ]

[max]

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: max ]

[slaphappy]

b-rock- The hillside was a replanted clear cut and the majority of the trees stuck out of the snow maybe 10 to 20 feet. The wet heavy snow took a couple of the smaller ones out. They were sparse enough to enjoy nice turns but consistently spaced on the hillside... there were no large open areas.

* Except for the cell phone crap, everyone's comments have been worthwhile, I hope others have benefited from the discussion. Thank you spray gods for keeping the BS to a minimum on a semi-serious topic!

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: slaphappy ]

[JayB]

I bet this guy would disagree....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Date: 2001-11-24 Submitted By: Luke Edgar Place: Mt Rainier State: WA Country: USA Fatalities: 0 Activity: SNOWBOARD Summary: !!! Amazing recovery!!! 1 snowboarder caught, completely buried

Date: 11/24/01, Mt Rainier, WA--1 snowboarder caught, completely buried(except for small piece of binding), found by visual clues and probing, dug out uninjured in approximately 5-6 minutes.

9 LIVES

This is a backcountry snowboarding story of how I lived to tell you about this backcountry snowboarding story. Usually people who make this many mistakes don’t get the chance to tell the story, so here goes.

Yesterday, November 24th, was the first day of the 2001 season for me and I wanted to go backcountry. Baker and Crystal were opening up the 25th, but I didn’t want to wait in long lift lines for tracked up rocks and my body needed conditioning that only earned turns can give.

I was going up to camp Muir at about 10,000ft on the S. side of Rainier solo or not. I knew the route well, knew it would be crowded and knew it had very little if any avalanche danger. I sound confident and cocky – I was. The night before my good buddy and touring partner Gorio called me and was in. Between the two of us we’ve done this tour over 40 times. I brought my compass, transceiver, probe, shovel, first aid/repair kit and enough food and clothes for the trip including an extra night if needed. If I had any concern at all it was of spending an extra night on the mountain, and even that was so faint I consciously didn’t bring a map or wands knowing I could dig in and survive.

The trip from door to door is about 12 hours so I told Gorio I’d be at his house at 4am. We were at the Longmire gate at 630am and were told the gate probably would not open until 11am due to snow, though very little snow had fallen overnight. We had breakfast and debated between our options, but with most roads closed in and around Rainier our only option was to drive to Hood and ride there. I guess you could call it a lucky break but the gate opened at about 8am and we were in the Paradise parking lot getting ready by head up shortly after. While packing Gorio told me he had not really slept and forgot his transceiver (mistake #1), no biggy to me, my decision to go on was made without a second thought.

We were first on the mountain and broke trail as the wind and little bit of snow had wiped clean any signs of an up track. We were still in the trees and lower section of the mountain, but the wind was serious even at this elevation (avy clue #1), which meant it would be even more ferocious above tree line. At one point Gorio and I were together when a gust blew both of us 2ft back. Wishing I had a facemask we climbed on.

Our first stop was going to be an old roofless shelter at the top of the steepest section of the climb, about 1500-2000ft from the parking lot and 3000ft from Muir. As we approached the wind was in our face and several times we had to lean to the ground to hang on. We finally had to take our skis off and scramble. Two skiers we met in the parking lot, Jimmy and Sam, had caught up to us in the shelter. We were out of the wind, but without a roof there was a constant swirl of snow in the air. Any pack, glove or exposed hand was instantly covered or filled with snow. We ate and drank hot tea. Gorio and I were still in for going to Muir as Jimmy and Sam decided to head down and ski terrain less windy.

We made it about 200ft from the shelter and ran into some climbers on the way down, they had spent the night in tents at about 8000ft and said it was like camping in the jetstream. I was impressed. My spare pair of socks that I’d tied together around my face was not working, the two knots prevented my jacket from closing completely and they really didn’t protect my exposed skin. Pressing on meant no exposed skin, so after about 10 minutes we turned back.

Our first turns were awesome as we were on the leeward side, though the wind had buffeted all sides, this was a deep firm powder that was easy to board. By now we had 20 skiers, climbers and boarders in sight. The firm snow showed no signs of weakness and we did not plan on digging any pits (mistake #2).

Though neither of us had headed SE of the parking lot, we could see the parking lot and snow covered road (closed in winter) heading east out of it. All we had to do was make it back to the road and ski back to the lot. Plus, we could see other skiers touring in all directions, so we were not alone. On the way down Gorio spotted some avalanche debris (avy clue #2), the first we’d seen. After about 1000ft of turns we switched back and headed for more leeward slopes to the east. Gorio spotted a great line that was tucked in next to a top to bottom line of trees; we were at the top an hour later.

After windsurfing with our bodies at the top of the ridge and having lunch we rode down one at a time. I’d say we were still being fairly safe riding one at a time and keeping each other in site. In retrospect I was all too confident in the snow and my ability to react to anything the mountain could dish out. In fact I remember thinking that very thought only hours before. At the time I thought it I wondered if the mountain could sense my confidence. I would later regret that thought.

We were now in the ride to the bottom with as little hiking as possible mode. As with many of the volcanoes in early or late season this means keeping your board on at all costs (mistake #3). So we were heading SW trying to make as many turns while not losing elevation, maybe even hoping to keep a line that could deposit us back in the parking lot without anymore hiking. It’s early season and I was pooped.

We were about 500 vertical feet above the parking lot and maybe a ½ mile east when we started working the beginnings of a creek. At first it was a wide opening and I made some steep turns just in front of Gorio, nothing moved. We regrouped and looked at the terrain trap below as the creek got narrower and the slopes into it steeper.

I could see a way out across a 100ft wide mini-bowl, nothing that big at all. It was right next to the steep slope I had just come down. I didn’t even look up to see what could cut loose on me or look down to really see where I would go if it did (mistake #4). It was a classic avy slope ready to rip and I was too close to safety and too cocky to even see it.

I had just entered it, trying to cut a high line straight across it’s belly (mistake #5) putting as much pressure as my 230 lbs of body and gear could put on it still only thinking of making the high point 100 ft away without hiking.

At the same time Gorio yelled "slide" I saw the snow in front of me start to move. I was only about 5 ft in and it looked like only the top 8-12 inches was moving, but for sure a big island of snow. At this point I thought I was still in control and there was no panic. I instantly turned my board back toward the direction I had come and the moving snow forced me to sit though I had hoped to keep moving as I had in many slides before. After about 20 ft I realized I was going to get forced into a narrow crux of the creek and I realized this was going to be big. Everything was happening so fast and at the same time in slow motion, I didn’t try to pull my ripcord that releases my board, or take off my pack, both would be anchors and all avy training says to ditch the gear. About this time the secondary wave of snow from above, that had a 2-3 ft crown at its deepest point in a 20 ft wide section, hit me from behind with speed. This is the last time Gorio saw me as I was buried from this point on. I traveled the next 40+ feet face down thinking I would be going down a long way not really knowing what was around the bend in the creek. I was still calm considering I was buried. I tried to reach my board to pull the rip cord but it was uphill. Before I knew it things were coming to a stop, I just managed to get my right hand in front of my face and my left hand about 10 inches away.

The first 10 seconds:

Oh my god, Oh my god. Keep calm, everything you’ve learned says to conserve oxygen and keep calm. I was calm for one second, and shitting my pants the next.

My goggles were still on and I could see, there was light. I tried to move but the snow was cement. My body was stretched out to the fullest, as my board was an anchor with my body and pack being pulled downhill. My head was face down and well below my feet. I knew which way was was up. I tried like hell to free myself, to push up, but each time the effort would take up all the oxygen and I felt like I was hyperventilating. Then I tried to yell "Gorio" "Gorio" with the same effect.

I relaxed, regained my breath, and somehow felt calm for just a few seconds.

The next 20 seconds:

I realized Gorio did not have a transceiver…did he have his probe??? I knew he had his shovel but how deep was I. I know from experience that avy snow is cement and digging someone out by yourself is compounded many times with each foot of snow that is on top of you. But how the f***! would he find me without a transceiver??? And if he doesn’t have his probe forget it, he has to have a probe? We’re in a hole, no one saw us and there was not enough time to get help. Fifteen minutes is all I have, all Gorio has to save me.

Is this it? Am I going to die right here? What about Sara, Rielly and Ivy? F***!! I try to push again and bring my left hand closer to my face, which fills my little air pocket and mouth with snow resulting in a double dose of panic.

The next 2 minutes:

All I can think about is my family. Reilly is 2 and Ivy is 4. How could I miss all the signs and die so early. All my backcountry experiences, training, first descents and shit talking and now I’m cemented a half mile from my car. I’m a f***ing idiot! F***!! They won’t find me until next year, it will just keep snowing and sliding and getting deeper and deeper.

I try to call out to Gorio again, but my breath has melted the snow, which is now starting to freeze around my head, greatly reducing the oxygen flow.

The last 3-4 minutes:

I’ve given up hope of being saved 100%. I think my goggles are starting to fog as it’s getting darker and darker. All I can think about is my wife Sara and kids, the best kids in the world. I know I’ll be hurting them, hurting the rest of my family and friends. I think how I’m not going to be able to teach my kids how to love the mountains, and I think they will hate the mountains. I don’t want them to hate the mountains.

I’m sad, I’m mad, I’m calm then I’m fighting again.

It’s dark but I’m still conscious.

I believe in god in my own way, and I ask for his help. It was weird; it felt like I was asking for my kids and not for me. I felt so sorry for them.

Then I hear it, muffled and about 10 or so feet away.

"Luke" "Luke"

Oh Shit, Oh Shit…It’s Gorio, f***in A it’s Gorio. I could only manage one or two Gorio’s, not sure if he heard me or not but just like that with a heart attack of excitement I knew I was going to be dug out.

The next 10 minutes:

It seemed like it only took 10 seconds, could have been a minute I don’t know, but Gorio got my face free and I gasped for air screaming "you saved my life, you saved my life". Gorio says I was pretty out of it saying all kinds of shit, all I remember is feeling euphoric and telling Gorio how he saved my life. Gorio was moving fast as we were still in a very dangerous place. It took a minute to dig out my board and get it off my feet when Gorio accidentally knocked some snow in my face blocking my breath. I yelled "Gorio, Gorio my face" as my arms and head were still locked in place. The helplessness was overwhelming.

The strange thing was my goggles were not fogged, I guess the no fog stuff I put on the inside and outside the night before worked and it was my brain that went dark.

I wanted to hug Gorio and Gorio wanted to get the f*** out of dodge, we had to hike back up the slide path to get out, as below us was an even bigger terrain trap.

My head was pounding from the lack of oxygen, I had no more strength left but the thought of being ripped by another slide and being able to see my family again after giving up hope was more than enough motivation to climb out. Still had one last 20ft section of exposed slope to climb across until we were in a safe zone, Gorio repacked his gear in another safe zone across the creek while I slowly made my way to it even though I was going as fast as I could. Once there I collapsed as I had been climbing the entire time since being set free. Once Gorio made it I went back into my "you saved my life" speech, hugs etc.

Twenty minutes later we were in the parking lot.

I’m still shaking my head. Asking questions. Felling so happy to be alive, to have a second chance to be with my family. And I can’t explain it, but feeling depressed and everything in between.

Gorio said he saw the second wave coming and it hit me hard, he went to a safe spot 20 ft away and grabbed his shovel and probe and assembled them both without having to take his moist gloves off, saving time. From the point he last saw me he probed down the narrow creek avy path until he saw a piece of my ski binding on the outside of my pack, the size of a dime, sticking out. The size of a dime! In 5-6 minutes he had my face exposed to air, beautiful air.

His experience was as traumatic as mine; only difference is he had oxygen. He was thinking about how he was going to have to tell Sara about me, how shitty would that of been?

Sara said she wouldn’t have been mad at Gorio, it was my decisions that got me into the mess, so she would have been mad at me.

So many times I’ve cheated death, before my kids I needed to get that rush to feel alive. I’d get it in the mountains, riding bikes, anything to get the rush and feeling invincible. Many times I’ve paid the price with pain, coming close to the edge and living to tell about it. For the most part I’ve mellowed out since having kids.

Yesterday I paid the ultimate price, I crossed the line so far I was dead in my own mind.

It’s still too close to really know what kind of perspective this will give me, but guaranteed, perspective will be gained.

To my family, Sara, Ivy and Reilly; I love you more than anything. More than solo trips, more than first descents and more than life itself.

To my family and Sara’s family who would have had to deal with the mess, help raise my kids and the entire trauma this would of caused you, I’m sorry.

To Gorio, what can I say or do? For my family and for myself thank you. I’ll ask the backcountry community what the going rate is for full body retrieval and life saving while putting yourself at risk. And to you I’m sorry for putting up my blinders.

To anyone who reads this and travels in the backcountry; read the signs, they’re out there if you look for them. Take the training, learn from the training and use the training. Always bring you’re tools; transceiver, probe, shovel and most importantly your brain. This was a teeny tiny slide I was in practically next to the parking lot. I could have been swept down into a creek hole and buried 20 ft deep or over a cliff, through rocks or trees and all totally helpless.

I’m not going to stop living life, but I plan on making sure I’m around to enjoy it with my family and friends as long as humanly possible.

I still have a few of those 9 lives left, but I plan on saving the rest for a long, long time.

Loving life,

Luke Edgar

[slaphappy]

I read that earlier this season, lucky guy. I'm familiar with the area he got caught in, it's a terrain trap. He wasn't wearing a beacon, although I bet he and his partner do from now on.

[JayB]

...with the notion that transceivers are just body recovery tools.

[mattp]

It is probably a good idead to assume that your beacon won't save you, and to try to evaluate the hazards without counting on being dug up, but if such a premise leads you to think you and your buddies don't have to practice using the beacons, you are making a mistake. I don't think that is what anybody here was suggesting, but I just thought I'd add a plug for being sure you are good at using the equipment that just might save a life.

[JayB]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattp:

It is probably a good idead to assume that your beacon won't save you, and to try to evaluate the hazards without counting on being dug up, but if such a premise leads you to think you and your buddies don't have to practice using the beacons, you are making a mistake. I don't think that is what anybody here was suggesting, but I just thought I'd add a plug for being sure you are good at using the equipment that just might save a life.

---

Good point - and often overlooked perhaps. I've always thought it best to assume that if you get caught in an avalanche, it will kill you, no matter how well prepared you are - and to plan your travel in avalanche terrain accordingly. Having said that though, I'd also go on to say that you're better off with a beacon, shovels, etc than you would be without them, and that most of us would be alot less likely to dismiss their utility as we lay suffocating below a pile of avalanche debris. That seems to be one of the conclusions that the fellow above came to, and I figured it would be worth sharing his story with the group

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: JayB ]

[allthumbs]

I know this is crazy but it's too bad you guys can't carry some kind of bag with red dye or something. If an avy caught ya, the bag would explode and the dye give some idea where ya were. Heh, I said it was a dumb idea.

[max]

This isn't a direct responce to the question posed, but I think it's relevant and I'd like to think it's inbsightful.

I had the opportunity to spend a couple of days skiing with two different people. THe first day I went out with this older guy, somebody alot of people would laugh at for being so non-hardcore. But he shredded. He skiied my ass into the grtound, effortlessly. THere were several slopes that we approached and he'd say "yeah, it just looks sketchy. Maybe some other day" and I'd roar and pound my chest and say "lets hit it!" Knowing he had been able to grow old for a reason, I defered to his judgement. We passed those slopes later that day and people had skiied them and they had not slid. Oh well. So a few days later, I went out with my roommate (who always reminds me he got in over a hundered days last year. Oh good.). He hadn't skiied any bc all winter, was fresh off a visiting the relatives, and had to go back to school in two days. We came up on a slope and it had all the bad signs (I'll spare you the spraY) but he still wanted to ski it!

So here's my punchline:

The difference between these two and what made one safer than the other is that one simply got out more and knew that there'd be another day and another chance to see the suspect slope in good shape. He didn't feel pressure to ski it. The second guy felt like he had to get his shredding in 'cause it's be a while till he got another chance. If you don't get out much, you're not going to be very likely to pass up a slope, even if it's unusually risky.

Oh yeah, as a side...About this Freeman fellow: I've met him, and he's the type of guy that when he starts talking, you shut up and listen. Freeman: thanks.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: max ]

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by slaphappy:

The next time I feel a bit "ify" about the snow pack stability and hear the little voice in my head say "if it slides you have your beacon-it won't slide anyway" I can remind myself that they are only useful for finding dead bodies and possibly reconsider.

---

That's exactly what they're good for....provided the batteries are fresh.

[Skisports]

I agree with beacons they are great but one things I see alot is people have these great new shine beacons and use the wear them but when it comes down to it don't know how to use them yeah you can find another beacon with them but can you find them in two mins or three thats the ture test. Pratice Pratice Pratice, Your aren't doing for yourself you are doing it for your freind. Once a month go and do mock searchs it helps alot

[Bronco]

good article al!

I'd like to go against convention on the sprayboard and give a thumbs up to REI for supporting Gary Brill's Avalanche training class which was well worth the money and I'd highly recomend it for anyone.