slaphappy Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 After triggering a slide this past Saturday that could easily have buried a large group, in a very unlikely area, it is clear to me that I may need to reconsider my opinion of avalanche beacons. Worse than suffocating myself would be living with the fact that I did not take every precaution possible to maintain the safety of my lady. (she had been standing in it's path only minutes previous to my releasing it) I have always considered them a false sense of security and have tried to use knowledge and good judgement as my "tool." (arguable whether not carrying one is good judgement) My question is: Have any of you been buried and succesfully been located and saved by a beacon? or have you located and saved someone with a beacon? I am likely going to purchase a set either way, but I have never known anyone who has been saved by using one. The next time I feel a bit "ify" about the snow pack stability and hear the little voice in my head say "if it slides you have your beacon-it won't slide anyway" I can remind myself that they are only useful for finding dead bodies and possibly reconsider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Don't those things send out tiny radio waves that actually prevent avalanches? I want my money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregm Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 the stat i heard is if you are completely buried in an avalanche and you are wearing a beacon you have a one in three chance of survival. your odds are higher (~50%) if the people looking for you practice beacon searches every week, like ski patrol. i think the statistic takes into account that 1/3 of avalanche fatalities are due to trauma, and that if you are buried more than 10 feet deep you are pretty much fucked no matter what. yes body recovery is a good reason to wear a beeper. every year there are search and rescue units using up their whole annual budget to find a dead dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 ...I think they send out a warning whan an avalanche is about to occur and you set them to how good of a skier you are, like DIN bindings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus_Engley Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 quote: Originally posted by slaphappy: After triggering a slide this past Saturday that could easily have buried a large group, in a very unlikely area, it is clear to me that I may need to reconsider my opinion of avalanche beacons. I have always considered them a false sense of security and have tried to use knowledge and good judgement as my "tool." (arguable whether not carrying one is good judgement) I've neither been buried nor dug someone out, but the stats on survival with and without beacons are pretty clear. In my opinion, beacons are only a false sense of security if you let them be-- for me, they're an absolute last chance, in case all the snow analysis and good judgement I can muster fail. I can't see how carrying a beacon could be "bad judgement", so long as it doesn't make you feel invincible. Where was the slide you triggered? m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 I have had a friend or two get buried in the Rockies. The tranciever came in pretty handy to them, although I wasn't there so I can't say for sure what happened... Don't forget that alot of avalanche fatalities occur due to trauma, shock, or hypothermia. I would spend the money on a good avalanche course before buying a beacon. That will give you a better idea of how to avoid triggering slides (where not to be), especially how to avoid triggering them on top of other people. I'd agree that trancievers give some people (ignorant peole) a false sense of sequrity. They think a tranciever is a pass that allows them to get on gnarly terrain. I used to be that way, and I speak from experience when I say that its a bad way to be. Then again, this ain't the Rockies... It seems like most days you'd have to actually try to trigger an avalance around here. Last word:If you don't have a peeps, at least carry a probe. [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Lambone ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 So if Gregm's stats are right, it sounds as if the answer to Slaphappy's initial question is that they really don't improve your chances all that much - maybe by 15% if your buddies are real good at using their beacons to find you. And I would guess that wet slab avalanches being the hazard that we face very often here in the PNW, it is very likely that the improvement may be less than what might be achieved elsewhere. As noted, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't carry one – hell they don't weigh very much and they might make a difference, either while you or your buddies remain alive or after they are dead. While it is true that the snowpack here may be more predictable than in other mountain regions, there are a lot of times when there may be pocket hazards or when the conditions may be marginal but you still want to go skiing or climbing (particularly the former, because a lot of fresh snow makes for high hazard and good turns). Dig lots of pits, watch out for each other, and be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 word Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Well if they aren't used to recover bodies or people then what are they good for ? They dont open beers. They dont light j's. They dont give me beta. Why do they beep so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted January 15, 2002 Author Share Posted January 15, 2002 Thanks for the responses. The slide was at Snoqualmie pass on a mellow tree covered hillside. (name?) It tore right thru the trees, aprox. 80-100 feet wide with a 14"-16" crown. It did not travel far but deposited about 4-5 feet where it rested. I triggered it on the descent as I came over a small knoll and weighted the snowpack. We had snowshoed up directly below it previous to the descent. I have triggered a few small ones in the past but never one of this magnitude on a tree covered hillside. I did overlook a few obvious signs in retrospect, underestimating the wind deposits, high water content, and poor bond to a crust. I have had avalanche training including how to use a beacon, and have turned away because of unfavorable snowpack in the past. (although I have also "gone for it") Trauma is responsible for 20% of the fatalities. (I have been researching) Carrying a beacon could not be considered "bad judgement" but lets face it we are all risk takers by nature, you can't tell me that it doesn't offer a small sense of security to even the most conservative of us. As I stated I will be purchasing a pair, I just wondered about the results in the field, not a controlled application. Thanks again for your opinions. [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: slaphappy ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCO Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 I took the avalanche 1 course last year. They spent more time on not getting caught in an avalanche than how to rescue some one buried in one. I think the course instructor pretty much had the same statistics on survival if buried. More than likely you will be dead before someone finds you even if you have a beacon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 "The figures generally show that about 90% of avalanche victims are alive after 5 minutes but that at 30 min less than 50% are. The odds of surviving burial are less than 50%, so it would appear that most are not being recovered quick enough." Not trying to start an arguement but... It does NOT say how many "survived". Only a percentage of victims "alive" after x number of minutes. Case by case basis is the only way to analyze this. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 All I know is that is does not take much to bury your ass. Also I know that it is easy to lose someone\something and think you know where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Just took an avy course (US Level 1) with MountainSavvy (great class). We spent the better part of last Sunday practicing both transceiver searches and probe searches. Got good at finding a shallowly burried trasceiver in under three minutes. Probe lines? We couldn't hit shit. The stats on finding a victem within the first three minutes is right on. I see know way one could locate a burial in that time without a transceiver unless there were some really obvious visible clues as to where they stopped. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Cavey is right. As Slaphappy's story would suggest, it doesn't take much. There was a picture in that Tony Daffern (is that how he spells his name?) book that showed what had been a deadly avalanche that occurred in what amounted to little more than a large tree-well. Most of us approach a large, open, wind-loaded slope with caution and think we're safe when on small slopes or where there are trees nearby. One of the scariest slabs I've triggered was below timberline at Paradise, on one of these great powder days where we were yo-yoing in the glades on Mazama Ridge because we were being "cautious." A 3' crown on a ninety foot slope made a VERY big pile at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus_Engley Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Marcus Engley ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted January 15, 2002 Author Share Posted January 15, 2002 Clearly knowledge, avoidance, and practice are the key to staying alive but we are humans and we do error. (I sure did!) Many of you have suggested it is foolish to travel the backcountry without a beacon, shovel, and probe and to an extent I agree. Is it not also foolish to not wear one of those Avalung contraptions as well? Trauma aside, from the response times quoted, wouldn't this also exponentially increase your chance of survival? I haven't heard anyone mention one. Why? [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: slaphappy ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Why because of the cost sometimes perhaps. How much gear am I going to carry and how much can I afford. http://www.backcountrystore.com/avalungandk2avaball.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus_Engley Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 A good point. I suppose it's all about acceptable risk. I don't spend enough time in serious avalanche terrain to warrant (in my mind) a vest, but I spend enough to warrant the beacons. Don't really know why I draw the line there, but I do. For what it's worth, I've read reports that the Avalung doesn't do nearly as well in a maritime snowpack as it does in a drier continental one. That said, it would probably still allow you to breathe that much longer... m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCO Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Why can I get a digital cell phone for $69 but a digital avalanche beacon costs $300+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfort Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JRCO: Why can I get a digital cell phone for $69 but a digital avalanche beacon costs $300+. Is that a serious question? Because they sell 300 million digital cell phones a year, and only a few thousand beacons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRCO Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 Not a serious question but the excuse I usually hear. I guess the question is "how much are you willing to spend to increase your chances?" Education - yes; Avalanche beacon - yes; Avalung - maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted January 15, 2002 Share Posted January 15, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JRCO: Why can I get a digital cell phone for $69 but a digital avalanche beacon costs $300+. Good question. The technology in there is super simple, at least with the past models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle_Tricky Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 I got myself buried and dug up once. I wasn't wearing a transceiver. Then again, how many people wear transceivers in a snow cave? I was a "instructional intern" working with a real teacher, teaching winter ecology at an alterna-highschool in Colorado. We took 7-8 kids up into RMNP to identify some trees and dig snowcaves one day. It was late March or early April, with a deep, wet spring snowpack. A couple of the kids dug a huge mansion of a cave. (Probably at least as big as caveman's new digs.) Maybe 10x12, way under the surface of the wet snow. I crawled in there, marvelled at their creation, noticed the right-angle corners (not)supporting the roof and whoompf! I'm buried under 5 feet of heavy spring snow. I was stuck in the fetal position, like I was praying to the rising sun. Unable to move at all--I feel like I'm encased in concrete. But my head was turned to the side and there was air in front of my face. It was dark. I could breathe, but only in shallow breaths as it felt like I had the weight of the world sitting on my back, smushing me into the core of the earth. Well, maybe it wasn't that dramatic. But I was stuck, totally dependent on the actions of others to dig me out. I was essentially paralyized--powerless to anything but relax, breath, and hope that the mini-cave I had next to my head wouldn't go away. Its amazing how well snow absorbs sound. I tried yelling, but it was hard to get enough breath to really holler. When I did, it felt like my voice died before it had even left my mouth. I mentally willed the air pocket next to my head to remain. I hoped that somebody outside the cave noticed its collapse. Though apparently they were yelling and screaming above me, I couldn't hear a thing, and wasn't sure they were looking for me until a shovel hit me in the back. Above ground, the students had noticed the collapse right away, and started digging in the general area. After over five minutes of digging with shovels, snowshoes and skiis, thought they were going to be excavating a dead body. When the finally found me, dug my head out, and I came to life, they seemed somewhat relieved. 5 minutes isn't a long time, but its long enough to contemplate how much it sucks to be stuck in a situation where you can do nothing but wait and hope someone will come save your ass. In most crises situations, they are either over before they started, ("Whoa!--that was close") or you can do something: consider options, make decisions, take actions, etc. Anyway, I told the students I was just testing their emergency response skills and they done good! [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted January 16, 2002 Share Posted January 16, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Marcus Engley:I suppose it's all about acceptable risk. I don't spend enough time in serious avalanche terrain to warrant (in my mind) a vest, but I spend enough to warrant the beacons. Don't really know why I draw the line there, but I do. m[/QB] An avalung ain't going to do you no good unless your wearing a beacon so your buddy can find you and dig you out. Gotta' wear a beacon if you're going to be out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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