Japanese Garden Anchors Chopped

[tyree]

shhhhuuure you would!!!!!

[ScottP]

I'm not even sure an acceptance of bolted belay anchors at a "trad" climbing area has anywhere led to the proliferation of bolted protection for crack climbing, but perhaps there is an example somewhere. Anybody?

 

Not exactly the same--but at Mclellan rocks in Spokane--there is an entire wall (Pack Rat cave, i think) that is full of bolted cracks (most of which still haven't seen FAs). I heard that the argument was that since it overhangs so much (probably 20 degrees or so) that it was "too hard" to place gear on the routes.

[kurthicks]

I'm not condoning the practice. I should have said that I heard that the developers said that it was "too hard to stop and place gear" and that a couple cracks are discontinuous. I'm all for giving them a go on gear, they're splitter fingers for the most part!

[ashw_justin]

MattP, you are consistently ruining these threads with facts and logic. This is an emotional issue not a factual one, and your failure to see that distinction invalidates all of your arguments. Bolts are wrong because they feel wrong. Bolts interfere with the feeling of superiority that I get being able to climb something that someone else cannot because their skills are not has high as mine. You need to quit thinking and start feeling.

 

If we allow bolts outdoors then the peon gym climbers will be able to claim that they climb the same as I do, thus either raising them to my level, or god forbid lowering me down to their level. My superiority would be gone! Rather than encouraging more to use the rock, making me a mere normal person; we need to discourage the masses so that I can continue to be seen as an extremist stud. That is where the logic comes in MattP.

 

Well also there is the logic that no hardman superstud should have to be shut down from getting on this uber-classic tuff route, because some poser yuppies are hanging all over the sit-start...

[EWolfe]

That was a great troll, HOR

[pope]

...maybe your energy should be focused on removing a bunch of metal from tunnel area and left side of lower wall. to me 2 inch rods with monstreus lognuts are way bigger problem then some bolts half way up.

 

"What we're doing, this little fuck up over here, it's OK because, you see, there's a bigger problem over there."

 

...iron horse- which btw i did lead to the top and you did not) then any trigger happy guy with a dril ever will- so stfu, as clearly we can see your superior moral high ground sunk well below sea level

 

BFD. I soloed Brass Balls.

 

...if you have such big balls, so you need to show us length of your dick by removing anchors from a popular climb, have some balls and show us your face wanker. other wise you're just another chickenshit cunt

 

Back to the potty language. Listen, pal, I didn't pull those bolts. Right now I'm probably too out of shape to do the full pitch, so if I were a convenience-oriented, selfish little prick I'd probably promote that anchor, so I'd have a nice little 5.7 climb on the LTW. But guess what? The fact remains that regardless of what atrocities exist elsewhere, regardless of whether there are enough mellow climbs at the LTW, and your juvenile taunts notwithstanding, the fact remains that one of the very best crack climbs in the State of Frickin' Washington is soiled with a completely ridiculous anchor less than 50 feet up. Stupid.

[ashw_justin]

Back to the potty language. Listen, pal, I didn't pull those bolts. Right now I'm probably too out of shape to do the full pitch, so if I were a convenience-oriented, selfish little prick I'd probably promote that anchor, so I'd have a nice little 5.7 climb on the LTW. But guess what? The fact remains that regardless of what atrocities exist elsewhere, regardless of whether there are enough mellow climbs at the LTW, and your juvenile taunts notwithstanding, the fact remains that one of the very best crack climbs in the State of Frickin' Washington is soiled with a completely ridiculous anchor less than 50 feet up. Stupid.

 

More motivation for us to climb 5.11

[AlpineK]

I think if you're going to pull bolts you should also have the guts to stand up and say, "I did it and this is why." I'm not saying you have to post your actions here, but you should be willing to make it public knoledge.

 

At Castle Rock a few guys pulled the bolts on the route inbetween Angel and Damnation. They had the balls to stand up and tell everybody what they did and why. The way things worked out nobody tried to replace the bolts, so in retrospect things worked out just fine. The same should be true at Index. If you want to rip out some bolts then go ahead, but have the balls to stand up for yourself. If you've done something that most people agree with then your actions will stick. If people don't like what you did then be prepared to revisit the site year round or just walk away and cry in your beer.

Edited May 5, 2007 by AlpineK

[high_on_rock]

Troll? The only trolls here are the sit-starting yuppies who crawl out from under the rock to get in the way of us real climbers. Until they learn to do the route just exactly like we do they should not be allowed to call themselves climbers (thus watering down the esteemed title that we real climbers want to protect from others who are not really rock climbers, even though admittedly they are climbing rocks, and climbing the same rocks we are; but not in the same pretty style. And it is the style that is important!) Next thing you know they are going to quit dressing like climbers should, quit drinking the proper cheap beer, and start carrying designer gear. They should not be allowed to crowd our routes and hog the attention that we want to keep for ourselves!

 

If some hard nutted real climber did not take matters into his own hands, then whose hands should he have taken them into? (And yes, we know it was a guy, because we still are not allowing women to water down our club and call themselves “ hard nutted real climbers.” ) And why should this brave soul have to identify himself, there could be public ridicule at stake. Would MLK have risked such public ridicule when he secretly took public matters into his own hands? Heck no, that is why he went with his nick name, “MiLK Toast” for the anonymity.

 

The bravado of this hard nutted rock stud is something to be glorified. Sneaking out there in the night and pulling bolts is a frightening experience. What if he got caught or seen or identified? Only true balls (again, not girlie balls because we are not calling them real climbers) could go out there in the night when there are scary noises in the darkness and commit such a selfless act. We should salute this brave soul (of course without knowing who he is).

 

Power to the Person!

 

Edit: Nor should people be allowed to use cams on this route. When I first did the route (OK, I have never actually physically climbed the route, but I have visioned myself pulling the route in tremendous style) I did the route in true hard-nutt style, using only penis jams for protection (unzip my polypro and shorts, lean in and think of Kevbone (who is really Arch posting under a different name and fighting with herself; i.e., not going to be allowed to be called a "real climber" ever) and that would free both of my hands for waiving at the adoring fans.) If I could climb it without cams, no one else should get to use them and call themselves a hard nutt!

 

Again, Power to the Person!

 

 

Edited May 5, 2007 by high_on_rock

[Raindawg]

high on rock says:

MattP, you are consistently ruining these threads with facts and logic. This is an emotional issue not a factual one, and your failure to see that distinction invalidates all of your arguments. Bolts are wrong because they feel wrong. Bolts interfere with the feeling of superiority that I get being able to climb something that someone else cannot because their skills are not has high as mine. You need to quit thinking and start feeling.

 

If we allow bolts outdoors then the peon gym climbers will be able to claim that they climb the same as I do, thus either raising them to my level, or god forbid lowering me down to their level. My superiority would be gone! Rather than encouraging more to use the rock, making me a mere normal person; we need to discourage the masses so that I can continue to be seen as an extremist stud. That is where the logic comes in MattP.

 

Hey smart-a#$: you have contributed nothing.

 

"glassgowkiss" says:

your generation carved more pinscars (like mentioned by you iron horse- which btw i did lead to the top and you did not) then any trigger happy guy with a dril ever will- so stfu, as clearly we can see your superior moral high ground sunk well below sea level

 

a) pope isn't old enough to be from the "pin" generation...he started climbing in 1985.

b) you don't know his accomplishments, which are many, but you seem to think that a schvantz measuring exercise will somehow prove any argument you might offer.

c) it's spelled "drill", not "dril".

d) your potty-mouth doesn't enhance your points.

 

funny little man, potty mouth.

 

"high on rock"....your just previous post, a weak attempt at satire, is even lamer than your first, and not even worthy of requoting.

 

Brother Alpine K says:

I think if you're going to pull bolts you should also have the guts to stand up and say, "I did it and this is why." I'm not saying you have to post your actions here, but you should be willing to make it public knoledge.

 

Not necessarily. Given the immature, big-talking, violence-spouting nature of some of the "climbers" who post here, I think it's perfectly acceptable to do the deed in stealth, to avoid the potential beating from those "free-thinking climbers" that disagree, and the resulting prosecution inconveniences that will be directed against the "beaters". Everyone knows why bolts are being pulled. In my opinion, the more the better.

 

 

 

[AlpineK]

I don't know Raindawg. Most folks are proud of FAs. Shouldn't other folks be proud of first debolting (FDB)

[high_on_rock]

I agree with you completely routehog and am quickly becoming a fan of yours. I think they should make you a moderator so that you can just delete the posts that don’t agree with our hard-nutt beliefs. When one gets too old to stand behind their mother for protection, they can always make their public stands in the darkness; nothing dishonorable about that. Our anonymity while performing our brave acts is merely for the protection of those masses who might mock our bravery! It is for the masses that we sneak around for our public deeds!

[RuMR]

...actually, ethics aside...i can see why Jap Gardens low anchor was removed...

 

So, i head out on one of the very very few SUNNY saturdays in the spring that we have around here and an aid party is setting up on jap gardens...fine, i think, i'll go somewhere else and come back...i do and i return 3 1/2 hours later AND THEY ARE SETTING UP A HAUL ON THE FIRST ANCHORS!!!! wtf!!! they then move on to the "second" pitch for a couple more hours...

 

one party has ostensibly monopolized that entire route (and the routes that are entered from below) for an entire day...a rare day as well...several other parties expressed interest in doing the route as well throughout the day...

 

everyone is entitled to their due and i understand this, but come on??????

 

 

CHOP THAT STUPID ASS ANCHOR...

 

as an aside, i initially was on the side of the having the anchor there, but no more...

[high_on_rock]

So Rumor, is your objection the anchor itself, or the fact that people are not sharing very well? I have always found that with polite conversation most people will typically (not always) flex/ and I know that when I am monopolizing a route I always allow others to climb through.

 

Is there an educational alternative to chopping these anchors? Much like bikers often chant “share the road dude!” perhaps we need a climbing mantra of “share the rock dude!”

 

[Gary_Yngve]

RuMR, I don't think the aiders would have cared if there were an intermediate anchor. You'll see aiders on the first pitch of DHLA, to access Town Crier. That's just as annoying, if not more.

 

High On Rock is right... share the rock.

-If you're a large group TRing, and someone wants to lead through, let them go.

-If you're going to go aiding, try to do it on something that's not a popular free route.

-Everyone -- focus on awareness, commmunication, and respect. I think those will go a long way to resolving problems.

 

[Raindawg]

I agree with you completely routehog and am quickly becoming a fan of yours. I think they should make you a moderator so that you can just delete the posts that don’t agree with our hard-nutt beliefs. When one gets too old to stand behind their mother for protection, they can always make their public stands in the darkness; nothing dishonorable about that. Our anonymity while performing our brave acts is merely for the protection of those masses who might mock our bravery! It is for the masses that we sneak around for our public deeds!

 

 

 

[Jens]

some random junk.

*Given the mean age of rock climbers in this state........ their is a high likelyhood that the intermediate bolts station on the 1st pitch of Japanes Gardens is older than the person that pulled em'! (not the hardware- but the station's location)

*There is abosultely no way that the lack of an intermediate station is deter a slow aid climber from getting on the route.

*Pulling the station again is a mute point. I have talked to at least 4 folks that will donate hardware to continue replacing the station if it gets chopped again. They will overwhelm and outlast a solo bolt chopper.

* The station is historical and it makes the pitch more fun. I clip a long sling on the bolt and punch it through the layback. It sucks to have to lug big stuff up their.

* The station will allow people to climb the pitch faster instead of worming around behind the lieback and fiddling with big gear.

 

[lancegranite]

"I'm sorry sir, you are just not cool enough to have fun here..."

 

 

* photo stolen from Pax W/O permission

[high_on_rock]

self deleted for mean spiritedness.

Edited May 6, 2007 by high_on_rock

[Raindawg]

some random junk.

*Given the mean age of rock climbers in this state........ their is a high likelyhood that the intermediate bolts station on the 1st pitch of Japanes Gardens is older than the person that pulled em'! (not the hardware- but the station's location)

And what is that mean age? I was out there yesterday and saw youngsters, a number of gray-haired folk and everything in between. But apart from that, what's your point?

 

*Pulling the station again is a mute point. I have talked to at least 4 folks that will donate hardware to continue replacing the station if it gets chopped again. They will overwhelm and outlast a solo bolt chopper.

 

Don't count on it. And why do you think bolt choppers work solo? It could be a determined group effort.

 

* The station is historical and it makes the pitch more fun. I clip a long sling on the bolt and punch it through the layback. It sucks to have to lug big stuff up their.

 

Sounds lazy.

 

* The station will allow people to climb the pitch faster instead of worming around behind the lieback and fiddling with big gear.

 

Dude....is your goal speed and laziness?

 

And Mr. Jonah says:

Bolting and chopping is not helpful at all, from an access perspective. It makes us all look like we are not cohesive and simply bicker amongst ourselves. Then, when we want to work with landowners on access issues, it is harder to claim that we represent a unified group of climbers, and harder to get landowners to negotiate at all.

 

We are neither cohesive nor unified nor will we ever likely be.

Some of us find the widespread addition of artificial hardware to the rock climbing or mountain environment to be offensive to the notion of preserving such environments as intact as possible for the present and future. Places like Vantage deserve to be closed down by land managers until the place is restored. Installing or reinstalling unessential permanent alterations such as the Japanese Gardens anchors only contributes to the physical mess climbers seem to have no trouble making these days. By the way, the "Washington Climbers Coalition" doesn't represent me nor a good number of other like-minded climbers.

 

Lancegranite: cool picture of The Man.

 

"high on rock" says:

What you don't realize routehog is that people are not laughing with me -- they are laughing at you. They are laughing at you, do you feel it? People are laughing at you because they think you are an idiot. Ouch!

 

 

How old are you? Jr. High School? You're no longer worth responding to.

 

 

[high_on_rock]

You don’t understand Rainhawg, I agree with you fully! I too have measured my manhood, I got out a good Canadian ruler and came up with a full 9 canadian inches! I am with you. These normal people just don’t understand what rebels like us are capable of! It is to express our complete independence that we align ourselves into a unified group of anarchists. The man cannot put his rules on us, we live by our groups own adopted set of adopted anti-social behaviors (hell, they don’t even know our secret handshake (let me give them a hint, we reach out a little low, grab, and shake)). They have no clue brainslog what we are planning next! Then they will take us seriously and quit laughing at us!

 

By the way, our new secret club t-shirts are nearly complete. We will have the logo on the inside so that no one else will know we are wearing them. And one more thing, but you will have to use your secret cap’n crunch decoder ring to unscramble this. WweW WareW WdorksW. They will never get that one.

 

Power to the Person!

 

[RuMR]

So Rumor, is your objection the anchor itself, or the fact that people are not sharing very well? I have always found that with polite conversation most people will typically (not always) flex/ and I know that when I am monopolizing a route I always allow others to climb through.

 

Is there an educational alternative to chopping these anchors? Much like bikers often chant “share the road dude!” perhaps we need a climbing mantra of “share the rock dude!”

its not the anchor...and the ethic of the bolts are not the reason the anchor was chopped...

 

i have the same issue with people who group tr a route all day...

[EWolfe]

I think ANOTHER anchor just below the first .11b crux would be just swell, fellas! Who's with me? Yay!

[lancegranite]

Everyone all done feeling important?

...Good, now stop acting like this shit is important.

Harp over pseudo politics, whine about personal ethics, cry about bolts!

Even land managers could fucking care less about shit this stupid.

I declare this thread dead.

Amen.

[RuMR]

I think ANOTHER anchor just below the first .11b crux would be just swell, fellas! Who's with me? Yay!

you need to cavort around like a hippie and eat more sushi...