goatboy Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I want to get some thoughts from this community on the idea of opening a Mountaineering/Adventure bookstore somewhere in Seattle. The vision is to open a store that sells outdoor adventure books/maps and also serves as a caffeinated hang-out place for climbers during the day, and perhaps the occasional slide show or presentation during the evenings. There could be coffee, wifi, photos on the wall by local climbers... The strengths that I see of such a venture would be the community it both creates and taps into, the enjoyment of the work, and the great market that Seattle represents for such a business to succeed. The problems I envision are the high cost to start such a business, the competition (i.e. Mtneers bookstore, REI), and the high cost of real estate to rent or buy in Seattle. In order to combat the competition, I bet location of the place would be very crucial to its success. Any thoughts on the best location? I appreciate any responses that help me better assess the viability or strategy for such an enterprise. Thanks in advance. - Steve "the goatboy" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Seems like a pretty impossible venture unless you could somehow implement a strong online presence as well. Location wise I'd have to think N. Seattle would give the best combination of convenience/market/rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATT_B Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Cool idea. I would suggest maybe broadening it a bit to include more outdoor adventure type stuff like climbing, skiing, kayaking, caving, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 Trogdor, do you mean an online sales outlet for internet sales, or an online presence in terms of marketing, community, building local connections, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Might be worthwhile to meet with folks that actually run independent coffee-shops and bookstores and getting their insights, so that you can get a sense of what they have to say regarding major challenges that they have to deal with, what kind of numbers you'd need to make the venture work, etc. Launching this right next to or in conjunction with an existing shop, like Second Ascent might help generate some FF/REI type synergy. Climbers looking for gear head over for a bit of reading and coffee, climbers that stop in for coffee head next door looking for gear, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 I was thinking online sales. It just seems that even small climbing shops aren't exactly rolling in dough, so when you eliminate gear, much of which is high margin, I'd think it would cut into profitability. Regarding the coffee shop/meeting place, think about pub club turnouts; 4-6 climbers every 2 or so weeks. Not saying it wouldn't work, I just don't know if you're clientèle is the most social group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Chessler Books already has the online pretty much sewn up. Specialty bookstores in general are a good way to go broke. You know what a bookstore owner would do if he won the lottery? Just go on running the store until the money's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Chessler Books already has the online pretty much sewn up. Specialty bookstores in general are a good way to go broke. You know what a bookstore owner would do if he won the lottery? Just go on running the store until the money's gone. You make a strong case fo doing nothing G. You work for the government don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 Thanks for the thoughts, folks. Good suggestions, JayB! G-S, your line about the lottery is classic. Other input and opinions very much appreciated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Chessler Books already has the online pretty much sewn up. Specialty bookstores in general are a good way to go broke. You know what a bookstore owner would do if he won the lottery? Just go on running the store until the money's gone. You make a strong case fo doing nothing G. You work for the government don't you? not for years... and my brother runs a couple of successful bookstores Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 One other comment is that both in terms of volume and margin-per-sale, coffee will probably end up generating most of the sales for this kind of a business, so I would think that the goal of a coffee store that also happens to sell climbing literature has a much better chance of succeeding than a place that sells climbing literature and also happens to serve coffee. Another thing that might be worth considering is that I would bet that climbers would be most likely to swing by and hang-out on weekday evenings, so you'd need to do what you could to capture consistent local business during the rest of the day, whether that be from commuters, students, stay-at-home parents, or whatever the prevailing species happens to be where you set-up shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Not to mention that Chessler used to have a real store but is now only an online / mail order store. On the other hand if Seattle can support an left wing bookstore that caters to Anarchist then why couldn't it support a outdoors bookstore that caters to yuppies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Is the anarchist bookstore making money or is it a way for some trustafarian to get a tax writeoff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmncwrtr Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I think Jay has a good point about coffee being the biggest revenue generator. I have a friend who owns a coffee shop in Raleigh, NC. If I remember correctly when I was doing some research for a project, he told me 40% of his profits are generated by 60% the same customers. It was something like that. Just PM me if you want me to put you in contact with him. If you were open evenings, you could always bring speakers in to do talks on whatever you end up specializing in. This could work well with a bookstore since authors are always looking for promo ops. To bring in the moms during the day, you could find people to do a talks on outdoor activities/safety/trips/etc with kids. I'd love something like that and so would my friends. We're in the Portland area, but I'm sure there are moms like us up there. Plus any local (and even some not-so-local) writers would probably jump at the chance to promote themselves, especially if you were going to follow the talk with a booksigning. I don't know much about climbing (total newbie here trying to learn) but I do know a little about books. The publishing business has changed drastically in the last decade and just when you think you've figured it out, something changes again. Online sales, brick and mortar stores, warehouse sales and discount stores have really hit independent bookstores' profit margins. If you really want to go forward with this, do your research. There are success stories (you need to attend one of the independednt bookseller conventions that are held regionally around the country, if you're serious) but there are just as many failures. It's a lot of work to make any small business succeed. You would want to specialize (though as someone else posted not just climbing, maybe some additional outdoor recreation activities to appeal to a broader base of customers.) The key would be to make yourself/store known as "the" bookstore to get books on "insert-subject-here" whether a person lived in Seattle or Bangor, Maine. That would mean becoming (or hiring others who are) an expert in whatever subject you sell and knowing what's inside the books, not just the titles. You'd need to put out a newsletter (electronically) with reviews, recommendations, etc. Plus if you became really good at hand-selling books, writers would go out of their way for you and your store. Promotion would work both ways. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 Thanks for all the great info and advice. I am afraid if I ran a coffeeshop I would drink all the profits!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbalTee Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I've seen something similar done before in the Peak District in the UK. Outside sold gear though and had a coffee shop (best tea and cake ever after a hard day of climbing!) upstairs and the gear shop downstairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
still_climbin Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Ought to sell beer. I remember in the early Leavenworth days that a big draw on weekends at the Shelton Cafe was the climbing crown just because they had large B&W photos of climbers plus bottled beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) Two words: Liquor license. Edited January 18, 2007 by lizard_brain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 Thanks for all the great info and advice. I am afraid if I ran a coffeeshop I would drink all the profits!!! I know of a coffee shop in North Seattle that is already set up and can be leased. I am familiar with it b/c I studied its operations for my thesis. PM me if you are interested in learning more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Sounds like a good enough idea, and I'd love to see it if you pull it off. Here are my thoughts at least... Is it a coffee shop, or a bookstore? If it's a coffee shop, ya better have GOOD coffee and wireless. That's just to get on the same playing field as the bazillion other places in town. Is it an outdoor bookstore first? What catagories are you planning on turning over fast enough to keep people coming back? If you just stick with outdoor titles, they are mostly non-fiction and there aren't very many new titles that come out each year. Your bookshelves will remain relatively unchanged month after month after month, which is fine for a reference library, but for a business that would rely on sales and re-sales to make money that might be an issue. Also, contrary to an above post, climbing hardware represents the least margin of any product in a store. That's why fleece jackets at REI grow while the climbing department shrinks. Finally, I think if you wanna make it go, don't think of combating competition, but rather working with the existing community and fill a niche that's lacking. If you try going head to head with Starbucks/Tully's/Vivace... and Elliot Bay, Border's and Barnes & Noble all in one shot - well you get the idea But man...make it happen and I'll be the first to buy a cup of coffee and a Mark Twight book-okay...maybe an Alpinist magazine. Well... my .02 cents at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 i've always wondered why the climbing gyms don't have a coffee stand in them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 I have to agree with drew on this one, Chessler Books pretty much has the specialty market locked up in mountaineering literature. As for maps unless you carry the full complement and can compete with Metzgers and REI, I think you'll be hard pressed. Opening a coffee shop in Seattle with some mountaineering literature on the shelves isnt really going to be enough of a differentiator either, IMO. The only "coffee shop" that really ever made a mark on the map around here was Still Life, and its gone now. If you go forward one objective should be to find the right location: Seattle might not really be it if you want to cater to climbers specifically. I think a model of success is kind of like the Mazama store...where they sell everything (at high prices), but have the market locked up anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpine_Tom Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 i've always wondered why the climbing gyms don't have a coffee stand in them... Exactly! What you need to do is get a climbing gym, like Stone Gardens, to open an new location up north, around Northgate someplace, and you can append your climbing books / coffee / speaking venue to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeezix Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I think you should sell mountaineering books, coffee, beer, and vintage musical instruments. And northwest coast indian art. I'd shop there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkemp Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Hi everybody. Boy, its been a long time since I was on cc.com. Anyway... I think the idea would work in a big way. But, (as Pee Wee Herman said, Everybody's got a big But) But! Whether its a coffeeshop or a tavern, its a restaurant business. That's what you're lookin' at. I've been kickin' this idea around for many moons. I haven't done it 'cause I got the golden handcuffs at my current work. I was thinkin' of this as my retirement gig. We'll see. Sounds like you might go out and just do it. Goddam. That would be excellent. Doxey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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