wondering... take it easy... just a question

[JayB]

[zl27]

 

Dude, you obviously know nothing about the crash. It was no search, all rescue. Help was summoned for the original nine victims by a witness who called 911 on his cell phone. A PLB would not have allowed that witness to communicate the level of rescue needed, likely delaying the required depth of response. Plus, when the chopper crashed, the PLB would have been useless for summoning additional help.

 

Edited December 17, 2006 by JayB

[Frikadeller]

 

Dude, you obviously know nothing about the crash. It was no search, all rescue. Help was summoned for the original nine victims by a witness who called 911 on his cell phone. A PLB would not have allowed that witness to communicate the level of rescue needed, likely delaying the required depth of response. Plus, when the chopper crashed, the PLB would have been useless for summoning additional help.

 

Awww dude, he was just a spammer, and Jay B deleted his crap, because he was just trying to sell all of us some PLB's...

 

A salesman is just a salesman... I'll bet he doesnt even go into the "wilderness"...

Edited December 17, 2006 by JayB

[zl27]

OMG, that is hysterical! Much-need comic relief.

[selkirk]

I guess my point is that if climbers would lose some of their arrogant attitude against MLU's, it might not be necessary to send as many others up in dangerous conditions to hunt all over the mountain since they can be pinpointed. A small team of rescuers could bring them down much sooner.

It's kind of the same mentality as those who won't wear "personal flotation devices" or seat belts in their cars. Helmets for bicyclists and motorcyclists have been shown to save lives, but there are those who scoff at them.

But, like I said, to each their own. I prefer living well, then dying of old age.

 

Phil... I'm not particulary familiar with all the in's and out's of MLU's but as I understand them their akin to an avalanche beacon or a tracking device, and assist in the finding of people. My own background is that I used to be a certified lifeguard, an eagle scout, have currently been climbing for about 4 years, and have been following/reading up about climbing accidents for the last 15 years ever since my dad crushed a disk in his neck climbing and here's what little info i've gleaned about rescued devices.

 

Drowning

Lifejacket: saves you from drowning. Time to drown, 5 or 10 minutes, critical factor getting to them quickly.

 

Avalanche

Avalanche Beacon: If you survive the initial trauma, survival chances drop off quickly aftr 15 minuts, critical factor getting to them quickly.

 

Climbing accidents: If they survive the initial accident and injuries aren't immediately life threatening, chances of survival are actually very good. Time frame to get to them and rescue them is in hours or days, not minutes. The two critical points seem to be iniating the rescue and getting word out that there has been an accident, which can either take minutes with a cell phone, up to days if they have to hike out/be reported missing. The second critical point is getting to them and getting to them down. This is not the same as finding them. They're on highly technical terrain and often dealing with extremely bad weather. Getting to them and getting them down could take hours or days.

 

MLU's or PLB's might help climbers iniate the search. But they did that with the cell phone anyway. And none of those things will help the rescuers get to the climbers or bring them down. This combined with the added weight, makes MLU's and PLB's not particularly usefull for climbing.

 

For the non-climbers reading these posts: Once the rescuers are capable of reaching the climbers, finding them is not usually a problem. Climbers are typically on a given "route" up a mountain, in the case, the North Face gullies. This immediately narrows the search region down, to those gullies, and the descent routes. As soon as the weather breaks, if they're capapble, all three guys will have their heads out, their arms waving, and will be either coming down or actively looking for rescuers. As grim as it is, if they don't appear on their own it's probably too late already. The MLU's would be good for recovery.

 

Further as the MLU's are only currently available on Mt. Hood, chances are these guys had never even heard of them. In my opinion the MLU's would be more effective if issued to hikers and people likely to get lost in the woods than to climbers. Just like PLB's or EPIRB's are typically taken by sailors. For those sports the hard part is the rescue initiation and the finding of them, not necessarily the getting there and getting them out.

 

bottom line. IMHO MLU's are good for finding things, but that's not the hard part of climbing rescues.

[ClimbingPanther]

Phil, try to remember what has been discussed previously so we don't waste space hashing it over and over. Remember that SAR folks on the ground are volunteers who love to climb and have a wonderful sense of care for others' well-being. They wouldn't be out there if they didn't want to be. Also remember the ethic of not sending SAR into danger above and beyond what is inherent in mountaineering. This is why nobody has been swept away in an avalance attempting the impossible.

 

These guys are not responsible for putting anybody's lives in danger. That is each SAR member's personal choice, and to pin it on the climbers distracts people from the incredible character of the SAR folks.

[Phil Jones]

I thought the main purpose of an MLU was to LOCATE the climber. Sure, the actuation of the MLU would initiate the search same as the cell phone (if you had a good signal) but it would go further and allow the searchers to pinpoint where the climber and MLU were holed up. That would save valuable search time, right?

 

Something tells me if any of these three climbers were still capable of flagging down a helicopter, they'd have done so by now. I still think an MLU could have saved their lives and I really have to wonder why, when one of them wrote to this forum a month ago, someone didn't clue him in to the availability of MLU's on Mt. Hood. It has been said they stopped at REI and bought some gear, so perhaps had someone informed them they could rent MLU's at REI, they may have done so. Who knows?

 

Oh, well, too late now. Maybe you can inform the next out of state climbing crew. Or not. Your decision.

 

 

[ZimZam]

Your head is next.

[high_on_rock]

Society has become completely risk adverse. Growing up, seat belt use was unheard of. They then became required for children, then became required for adults. We now have absolute requirements for how children are to be buckled, how they are to be belted, and which seat they are to ride in, and what that seat should be. Do you think it will stop here, or do you think this will continue until all children, then adults will have to wear helmets in cars? In many cities one will be ticketed for not wearing a helmet while riding a bicycle, or even roller-skating, would anyone have predicted this 20 years ago? “Land of the Free, Home of the Brave;” but don’t skate without a helmet or you will be punished!

 

At some point the additional “safety” requirements become more of a bother than provide actual safety. Where that line is to be drawn is an argument not a fact, and each will have their own opinion. In mountaineering, one can always fill their pack with more and more safety equipment, but at some point the extra weight and reliance on that equipment detracts from the safety and purpose for being there. We each make the decision for ourselves based on experience, strengths, knowledge, and risk assessment. Please don’t force others to agree with your opinion, nor should they try to force you to do things their way. Independence and reliance on ones self is a key concept in mountaineering, let’s not take that away. “Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.”

Eric

 

[Phil Jones]

If all climbers were orphans with no friends or families to worry and mourn for them, I could almost agree with the concept of not carrying a one pound safety device. But, then there is the issue of the risks searchers and their families assume when they have to hunt all over the mountain in high avalanche zones.

 

And, as far as cars, mandatory seat belts and child seats are concerned, do you really need someone to explain the reason these laws are in place?

 

Nobody is promoting mandatory use of MLU's, but it sure is wise to have one with you in times like this.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2006 by Phil Jones

[pulverschwein]

Something tells me if any of these three climbers were still capable of flagging down a helicopter, they'd have done so by now. I still think an MLU could have saved their lives and I really have to wonder why, when one of them wrote to this forum a month ago, someone didn't clue him in to the availability of MLU's on Mt. Hood. It has been said they stopped at REI and bought some gear, so perhaps had someone informed them they could rent MLU's at REI, they may have done so. Who knows?

 

Oh, well, too late now. Maybe you can inform the next out of state climbing crew. Or not. Your decision.

You have inspired me to register for this forum. Despite numerous explanations, and although you are admitedly not a mountaineer, you persist in reiterating the same oversimplistic response. I personally, am far from being any sort of expert mountaineer - I know about my own equipment on my own adventures, but that is irrelevant and will do nothing to help the missing climbers, their families or the SAR efforts.

 

What I think is important at this time is that you LISTEN to what the very knowledgeable mountaineers on this board have to say about this particular piece of safety equipment that you are obsessed with.

 

Moreover, your comments show a complete lack of respect, compassion and empathy given the fact that we know that the missing climbers' families are monitoring this board. Please, give it a rest, Phil - if for no other reason than to prevent these climbers' families from giving up hope, second guessing their decisions or the recommendations of what others could have done. I cannot understand why you insist on pontificating the same ill-informed, repetitive dribble ad nauseum.

 

Please stop. If you won't, I implore the moderators of this board to ban your innane comments until the rescue efforts are over for the sake of the mountaineers' families.

Of course, I hope we get some good news soon.

Thank you.

Edited December 17, 2006 by pulverschwein

[high_on_rock]

So perhaps we should change the country motto to, "Land of those forced into doing what is good for them, home of the risk adverse." Ban motorcycles, ban swimming without lifejackets (as they are starting to do in some rivers); ban alcohol; crack down on jaywalkers; ...

 

I personally like independence, I feel that facing and managing risk adds to life, and want to live where I can determine the course of my life. I could climb with sat-phones, radios, an extra weeks worth of fuel, a warmer sleeping bag, ...; each only weighing an extra little bit; or I can take my chance and follow the "speed is life" concept and go light enough to survive the worst case scenario rather than be comfortable in such a situation. Short of some unknown injury, I assume that the climbers are probably a little uncomfortable right now but still alive and well. Having the beacon would not have got them rescued any sooner, as they were having to survive the worst case scenario first. Facing risk can be character building.

 

I value your opinion that you would choose to take the extra electronic gadget, and I value those who choose otherwise. Freedom dictates that we support choices we would not make, and the only way I can be free is to enforce your right to be free.

Peace, brotherhood, and Freedom!

 

[Couloir]

This thread is like fucking Chinese water torture.

[DesertRat]

Who knows, maybe they have one and it isn't working. Just like the numerous GPS units I've gone through...

 

Perhaps not likely, but very possible.

 

The more experienced you are, the more likely you are to rely on your own mettle and knowledge rather than technogadgetry.

 

It's like saying NASCAR drivers would benefit from air bags.

[DesertRat]

Look at the "success" these PUBLICITY GRABBING "drone" guys have had.

 

Another "HIGH TECH" utility. ("Hurry, send out the drones! That'll find them for sure!") They look like cheap model airplanes with a

 

These guys are studs who relied first and foremost upon themselves. I'm not going to second guess them.

 

Phil: go read the book by Aron Ralson (the guy who cut his own arm off) and you'll understand.

 

[Mr_Phil]

Nobody is promoting mandatory use of MLU's, but it sure is wise to have one with you in times like this.

 

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

 

Mr Jones is simply saying that when someone is lost, having a MLU would be wise.

 

Therefore, everyone should always carry around an MLU because no one plans on getting lost. Ideally, these should be implanted at birth so that they cannot be separated from the owner. They should also transmit a unique code, so the owner can be identified. And they should be transmitting at all times, for situations where an accident prevents the owner from triggering the device.

 

Mr. Jones supports such a system because he cannot deny that this will save the lives of rescuers, which is his greatest concern.

 

I'm sure Mr. Jones has his personal MLU strapped on right now, because it would be neglegent otherwise.

 

[zl27]

Mr. Jones wins the Stanley Power Tool award.

[ZimZam]

This thread is like fucking Chinese water torture.

 

It's so . Inconsiderate MF's just couldn't wait to run their jibs.

[carolyn]

[Bigtree]

...Nobody is promoting mandatory use of MLU's, but it sure is wise to have one with you in times like this.

 

Yup, would have been nice to have one Phil. Same goes for a spare battery or two for their cell phone. Its also too bad they decided not to bring a sat-phone for each of them, a PLB or two, some honk'in big flares, extra food and water would have been nice I'm sure as would heat packs and a big fluffy down jacket and sleeping bag to keep warm. While I'm thinking about it, too bad they also didn't choose a less challenging route that would have made rescue easier/safer for the SAR-techs and too bad they didn't speak with someone as wise as yourself before heading out. Sure would have been nice. I bet you all three of them were thinking those thoughts when things got rough.

 

[Julian]

Phil Jones would probably say Steve House is irresponsible because he doesn't carry a PLB or satellite phone when he climbs a 10000 foot grade VII route.

[Bug]

Phil,

You have ventured into a discussion you are not qualified to persist in. These people on the mountain are well qualified climbers with all the skills needed to get through this alive if anyone can. Climbing with any electronic device is adding weight and it is the weight of a device that may or may not work in extreme conditions.

You can argue all you want about how to keep it warm and dry and functional, but until you have been in a nasty storm like they are in, you will not know what priorities determine what you choose to spend valuable calories on. For instance, did you know that putting snow in a water bottle and trying to melt it with body heat is going to cost you more in calories than the marginal benefits of hydrating?

But even that is missing some of the valid points put forth here regarding the style of climbing chosen by experienced climbers. Statistically, the style used by these climbers on Hood has been far more successeful than the style used by most accident victims on Mt Hood. The fact that someone got hurt is a known risk and a choice made by each climber who steps out the door. If I get hurt or killed in the mountains, my loved ones will know that the quality of the life I lived was very high by MY standards. To have lived a different life, never having been in the face of potential catastrophy and pulling through by using carefully aquired skills, presence of mind, and sheer perserverance, would be a prison sentence.

My hope is that these men will pull through with minimal injury and loss of quality of life. But if they do not fair well, anyone who knew them, or know any of us who consider ourselves "experienced climbers", should know that this was a possibility that not only was worth the risk but defined the path our lives have taken. We would be drab shadows of who we are today had we not found this path.

This says nothing about what other people choose.

As for the rescuers on Mt Hood, they are proceeding with great care and will not risk more than their experience condones. They are choosing their own path in this endeavor. And again, if it were me they were searching for, I would want them to know that they should be careful to the extreme. My choice was not intended to lure them into danger. My path is not theirs. My relatives know me. They may be disappointed that more is not done but when all is said and done, they will deeply respect the effort made by all.

This effort is exagerrated by the news coverage in terms of realative cost and time. The statistics have been posted repeatedly on this board showing that far more hunters, hikers, and snowmobilers find themselves in need of rescue than climbers. It is almost always during a storm. The danger to the recuers is only partially diminished by not being above tree line. A storm at any elevation means avalanche danger, Hypothermia, air travel restrictions, and all the communications problems you encounter in mountains and valleys.

 

Let it rest. You have asked your question and it has been debated. At this point, you either get it or you don't. The families of these men are watching this board. My guess is that, they get it. The men they are worried about have their respect and support. We need to be respectful toward them now* more than ever.

[Raindawg]

i'm curious. I’ve been a climber - not "hiker" since 1985. just relocated to the NW and found this site because of the "news". back in the day - a good friend and climbing partner (everest) once told me. "if i'm ever lost get the guys together and come get me" the last person in the world i want looking for me is SAR. look's like that is not the sentiment here in the NW. care to comment?

 

I've just read through (painfully) fifteen pages of mostly drivel, although there appeared an occasional thoughtful and provocative post(e.g. billcoe, "bug", directly above) while others, in my opinion, are rude, irrelevant or irreverant.

 

My opinion to you, original poster, despite your "everest-qualified" amigo's smug opinion, is that you should be profoundly grateful that anyone is willing to search for you or anyone else, in their time of dire need. No need to bash SAR at this time. No need to second-guess the preparations or intentions of the lost climbers. This discussion might better take place outside of the immediate context of a real-life crisis in which many people are spending their precious time and money, and risking their own lives in an attempt to rescue the lives of fellow human beings. Give it a rest for awhile, eh?

This situation might be best evaluated in retrospect, ideally with the input from the (hopefully) rescued climbers themselves.

 

[DocRock]

This is by no means meant as a comparison, but climbing history is interesting. Just a bit of McKinley history:

"In 1910, four locals (Tom Lloyd, Peter Anderson, Billy Taylor, and Charles McGonagall), known as the Sourdough expedition, attempted McKinley, despite a complete lack of climbing experience. They spent approximately three months on the mountain. However, their purported summit day was impressive: carrying a bag of doughnuts, a thermos of cocoa each and a 14 foot spruce pole, two of them reached the North Summit, lower of the two, and erected the pole near the top. According to them, they took a total of 18 hours - a record that has yet to be breached (as of 2006). No one believed their success (partly due to false claims that they had climbed both summits) until the true first ascent, in 1913."

Some guys are just lucky, too.

[Dechristo]

bs