jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Am I the only one who finds the whole Mount Hood situation bizarre that not one person has gone all the way up to find these 3 guys because the weather reports don't seem impossible to me? The reports indicate gusts to 80, which probably means steady 30-50 mph winds, white out, snow loading, etc. But they keep saying no one can get above the 7000 foot level. These are conditions regularly found on Denali. So why hasn't someone just pushed their way up there with a backpack full of freeze dried beef stroganoff (insert your favorite Mountain House flavor here)? I wonder if it is the 'rule of the rescuer' that no one proceeds if the rescuer is at heightened risk. In the meantime, these 3 guys are dying because no one will ascend a whopping 3000' to get them some food? Clearly they didn't pack for multiday and are now starving and hypothermic. It would really suck to hear another James Kim type of story because some beaurocratic agency rule prevented someone from reaching them in time. Or am I just crazy? I have climbed in these conditions a lot on Denali for a lot longer than 3000' elevation gain and I'm no superhero.
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Ummm no. It is just me..jonmf76. This is not a B.S. post. I want some real feedback on this.. Thanks!
Jens Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Definitely a good post and food for thought. If I was a rescuer, it would all come down to how avy loaded the slopes have become. --- When I climbed denali, we moved in weather i'd never move in here in the cascades because their were so many wands left from umpteen expeditions.
griz Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 if you are an experienced climber then you must also understand the term "whiteout". feel free to look for people,2 whose location is completely unknown, when you can't even tell if you are about step on snow or walk off a 1000 foot cliff. ps- i think your post sucks and is disrespectful to the amazing efforts going on there.
high_on_rock Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Jon's question sounds reasonable, just seeking information. Is it the weather or rules keeping people from going higher. If it is the weather, sad; if it is rules then lets get some freelance climbers to climb.
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 ya umm griz...I would assume people who know that mountain intimately might be able to find there way even in white out, which is generally on and off when it is that windy. As for disrespecting anyone, it would seem that your P.S. is the only disrespect going on here. It is a legitimate question that I am asking to people who are more in the know. Are you in the know? If so, please explain to me what is really going on there. They said it is raining at 7000' tonight. That doesn't sound too impossible to me, but then again, what do I know? High on Rock...that is basically exactly what I was thinking...I wonder if the authorities are preventing anyone else from going up the mountain. I would bet they are. Anyone know?
Off_White Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Yeah, there's nothing bureaucratic holding back the SAR folks, it's strictly the conditions. 23" of snow overnight, white out, and blowing up to a sustained 80 mph? It wouldn't take much to go from being a rescuer to needing a rescue. In good conditions Hood seems so moderate and friendly, so many people climb it, how hard can it be? I'll wager you could get a pretty good answer to that question right about now up there.
Off_White Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 if it is rules then lets get some freelance climbers to climb. Strap on the nitro, boys!
Mr_Phil Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 If the guys up there are able, they are probably dug in. How do you find a snowcave somewhere on a big mountain in a whiteout?
RedNose Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Keep it positive. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/84304/site_id/1#import
Alasdair Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 I will probably regret posting this but... The first thing a rescuer of any type is ever told is to not become part of the problem. The conditions on Hood are bad, although you might not be incorrect in stating that they are not impossible. There is a very high likelyhood of avalanche given the wind and new snow, and I would think that that is the biggest threat right now. There are a hell of a lot of climbers in the Northwest that could make it to the summit in the current conditions, but that does not mean that they are members of Mountain Rescue. Mountain Rescue groups are made up of VOLUNTEERS!!! Great people who are willing to give up their personal time to go and help others when no one else would be willing to go out because the conditions suck! This does not mean that all mountain rescue volunteers are comfortable, or for that matter capable of climbing to the summit of Hood in the current conditions. It also does not mean that the ones who may be capable of climbing in those conditions are available this week. If there is one thing I have learned from being a part of mountain rescue it is that as a climber you better not rely on anyone coming to get you. Not because they dont want to, and not because the groups are somehow undertrained or skilled, but mostly because they are groups of volunteers that like everyone else have lots of other commitments and other experiences. If you are lucky when you get into trouble the right volunteer with the right skills will be ready to help you. If you have the skills then there is a mountain rescue group that would love your help. Do something for the community next year and volunteer.
JosephH Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Sounds like a serious recipe for disaster to me. If a few of the Crag Rats who I know grew up on that mountain aren't making it up then no one else is likely to Rambo their way up without regretting it and making the whole situation more complicated for all concerned.
DirtyHarry Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 The logical caveat of any rescue is to not create more victims out of the rescuers. High winds and lots of snow equal heavy avy loaded slopes. I'm not familiar with Hood, but what would be the point of sending a team of rescuers into high probability avy terrain for the slight possibility of locating their probably-not-so-visible snow cave. I've climbed in the Alaska Range too and its my experience not much gets done on big mountains in whiteout conditions except for maybe following the sheep trail off the lower flanks of the west butt.
RedNose Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Well at least this thread took a turn for the better!
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Alasdair, Why regret your post? It seems straight forward, except where it gets preachy at the end...lol You raise some excellent points about the volunteer situation. I watched a few of them being interviewed on the news and they did seem to be guys in their 50's...which frankly surprised me. I worked with the Alaska Mountain Rescue Group for a few years teaching crevasse rescue classes and I agree these were not the top climbers in the region, just interested and willing participants. But skilled none the less.. I don't know that particular route, but from the pictures of the mountain it seems like a rather finite area where the upper guy is supposed to be, between 10,000' and 11,000' as it would appear the route narrows to a gully or so.
BirdDog Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 OP - You're right, currrent conditions on Hood are similar to those found on Denali, however if you're talking the west buttress the routes are quite different. The north face of Hood is extremely avi prone in these conditions, and has sustained steeper slopes. Also Hood doesn't have fixed lines and 5000 wands. Take a close look at the routes on Hood and think you'll see that no one can blindly push up them in these conditions. You seem to think someone can climb 3000 on Hood in a couple of hours. You state you've been on Denali - Did you go from the ice bowl to high camp (17,200)in a couple of hours? I am sure the rescuers are doing their best. Best of luck to all up there.
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Aside from the clear and present avalanche conditions, we're still talking only 3000' elevation gain at only 11,000' elevation with above freezing temps at 7000'. Doesn't that seem not that bad? I mean, couldn't a team(s) go out with GPS and packs loaded with food, fuel, etc..and just plug on upward? That would prevent more needing to be rescued because they'd be prepared for many days out. They too could dig in to snow caves if conditions got that bad, but they could also bring food and fuel to those 3 guys. As for avoiding the avalanche danger, with that level of wind, couldn't someone get up the leeward side of the ridge? Just wondering out loud here.
goatboy Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Am I the only one who finds the whole Mount Hood situation bizarre that not one person has gone all the way up to find these 3 guys because the weather reports don't seem impossible to me? Or am I just crazy? I have climbed in these conditions a lot on Denali for a lot longer than 3000' elevation gain and I'm no superhero. You asked, so I'll answer: Yes, you are just crazy. You may have climbed in "these conditions" on Denali, but were you following a well-marked cattle path or seeking someone buried beneath up to several feet of fresh snow? Were you moving from one established camp to another, or probing an accident scene in hopes of finding and supporting someone in need? In other words, "climbing" and attempting to rescue are pretty different functions... I think your comparison of the two situations is very reductionist and silly. So there you go. You asked, and that's my answer.
Alasdair Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Dropping off of the summit onto the northface in the current conditions would be a very serious prospect. I have done that route, and I have climbed in some very shitty conditions, and I am not sure I would risk myself going over that side right now. A small sluff or a gust of wind knocks you off your feet there and will loose 3000ft elevation the quick way.
hawkeye69 Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) thinkin on the route, and there are guysngals who know better than i on here, the pearly gates would seem to be the place to avvy. i agree that someone might make it up there, but then trying to rescue them? that might be pretty tough. as far as the older guys, the rescue I am sure takes all types of positions and some of them may be coordinators. furthermore, since many are volunteers, dont bag on em. whether they are 30 or 70 they are still vounteering. severeal years ago i did a loooong day trip with some Mtn Rescue guys. I was the old guy at 40 and they were all at least 10 yrs younger. i kicked their ass in terms of technical and aerobic abilities. so dont discount the old guys. edit: good point, reaching the upper n face would be extremely dangerous in these conditions if not down right suicidal... Edited December 14, 2006 by hawkeye69
griz Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 Aside from the clear and present avalanche conditions, we're still talking only 3000' elevation gain at only 11,000' elevation with above freezing temps at 7000'. Doesn't that seem not that bad? dude, i can't believe you have not already died in the mtns with thinking like this. disrespect indtended. yes, apart from the extreme avi hazard, not being able to see something a few feet in front of themselves and winds that can launch a body in the air the search conditions are great and I'm starting to think the searchers are pussies too. have at it,stud.
jonmf76 Posted December 14, 2006 Author Posted December 14, 2006 Bird Dog, I too am sure the rescuers are doing the best they can. But I am also sure the Sheriff or whomever is coordinating is also making certain to not allow them to get in too much risk with liabiltiy issues the way they are. In the meantime, the 3 guys are facing certain hypothermia if they only packed for 2 days. And isn't it a little bit silly to compare going from 8000' to 11'000 on Hood to going from 14,200 to 17,200 on Denali? I mean COME ON! And as for Denali and its fixed lines, etc...there was a period there where I climbed for 5 days without seeing another person or a wand in whiteout conditions by using a compass and orienting when there was visibility. One night had 10' of snow. I set my watch alarm every two hours to get out and dig out my tent. I did that 3 times that night. And we're talking 23" here on Hood.
hawkeye69 Posted December 14, 2006 Posted December 14, 2006 some of the news reports indicate winds of up to 100 mph. dont know how good anyone is in that, except maybe as a kite...
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