Questions for Fairweather, Puget, and KK

[mattp]

What do you guys think about the ACLU suing Rumsfeld on behalf of detainees mistreated in Iraq, or the stories of a German tribumal charging him with war crimes?

 

On a more likely than not basis, do you think there is much doubt that Rumsfeld knew about what was going on, failed to take strong measures to stop it, likey impliedly if not explicitly authorized it, or bears responsibility simply as the person at the top of the chain of command?

 

Did you think it was important to investigate people in the Clinton administration over travelgate, Vince Foster's suicide, Whitewater, or Monica Lewinski?

 

Should elected and unelected officials at high levels of government be accountable for what they do? How?

[cj001f]

[underworld]

why isn't the ACLU and the Germans going after the side that CELEBRATES abuses of the enemy?

[StevenSeagal]

why isn't the ACLU and the Germans going after the side that CELEBRATES abuses of the enemy?

 

That's the job of the military; and, because the erosion of our values isn't going to come from al qaida gleefully sawing people's heads off in foreign countries, it will take the form of citizens in our own country in positions of extreme power perverting our values and standards in order to further their own agendas. There is a reason we've evolved out of 14th century mentality of witchhunts, kangaroo courts, and torture chambers...oh wait, have we?

[selkirk]

Because the people who work at the ACLU are already paying taxes to support the government and military who is trying to kill those fuckers already.

 

But if you hold the iraqi insurgents and international terrorists up as a standard for our the behavior of our own military than that is the best moral and ethical behaviour you can hope for from our people.

 

Our torturing people serves absolutely no ones best interest. It mentally scars our troops committing the acts, tarnishes our reputation and diminishes our clout on the international stage, destroys our credibility in the Mid-East, gives the insurgency another selling point for recruitment, and at best extracts only highly questionable information or outright lies told only to appease the individual committing the torture.

 

Travelgate, Whitewater, and the Lewinski scandal were wastes of time. Clintons morals may have been questionable, but he did a good job running the country. None of that should ever have been serious news and only served as a distraction.

 

Rumsfeld, Bush, Gonzalez etc. are a different story. Not only are their morals questionabl, their perceptions seem to be blinded by arrogance and righteous indignation. And their solutions seems to be to stoop to the lowest common denominator in this war.

 

The ACLU and the Germans shouldn't have had to sue Rumsfeld. It shouldn't have happened in the first place. And with the Gonzalez memo supporting the statnce that we shouldn't be bound by the Geneva conventions, in my opinion impeachment should have at least been considered. Should Rumsfeld be held accountable? Fuck yeah, but it shouldn't stop there. Everyone who was aware of what was going on and did nothing should be held accountable.

 

It's interesting, the people who commit blue collar crimes (assault, murder, robbery) typically screw up the lives of one or two people per incident. Those who commit white collar crimes ruit the lives of huge numbers and are treated more gently. Those who who turn a blind eye or facilitate torture on an international scale, probably get a very nice severance package, and a lucrative consulting gig.

 

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. "

Franklin

 

[StevenSeagal]

The more I think about it, a better counter question for you is this:

 

Do you, or do you not, think that what went on at Abu Grhaib, alleged abuse at Guantanamo, et.al,-- if all proven true- are acceptable things that were "necessary"? If so, then it seems Americans are sharply divided on what sort of values we want our country to espouse and what the concept of "freedom" represents in terms of our laws and legal system and then I don't know if that rift can be closed because it is so vast. If you think the above abuses were unacceptable, then why do you care that the ACLU and other agencies are not also pursuing al qaida and abuses in other countries? That isn't their job. I was under the impression that the ACLU is a domestic agency that concerns itself with watchdog activities in our own country to prevent abuse of government power. The analogy I'm making is that this is like chastising the Medford, Oregon police force for not pursuing lawbreakers in Miami, Florida.

It's about upholding expected standards- and most Americans hold the US at a high standard. Everyone around the world already knows that Al-qaida, who are largely individuals identifying with no nation- has no standards at all. Eliminating their threat will come from military actions and cultural isolation that can only result from Middle Eastern countries coming up to speed with human rights- and if we don't set an admirable standard to present to them as a contrast to their own, WHO WILL DO IT?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

What do you guys think about the ACLU suing Rumsfeld on behalf of detainees mistreated in Iraq, or the stories of a German tribumal charging him with war crimes?

 

On a more likely than not basis, do you think there is much doubt that Rumsfeld knew about what was going on, failed to take strong measures to stop it, likey impliedly if not explicitly authorized it, or bears responsibility simply as the person at the top of the chain of command?

 

Did you think it was important to investigate people in the Clinton administration over travelgate, Vince Foster's suicide, Whitewater, or Monica Lewinski?

 

Should elected and unelected officials at high levels of government be accountable for what they do? How?

 

What do I think about the ACLU and lawyers in general? I think they're opportunistics, self-serving fucks, who go around democtratic processes by manipulating the legal system, and ruin people's lives and reputations using insidious, malicious tactics. On the social scale they are right above child molesters and right below politicians.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I'll agree that they are composed of a lot of sleazy lawyer types and it's a greasy organization. But you're avoiding the question- were the abuses wrong or not, should they be condemned or defended, and should those responsible be charged or not? If it just so happens that the ACLU is leading the charge, are you going to overlook a grave violation of human rights and a perversion of American values simply because you don't like the politics of the messenger?

[tvashtarkatena]

What do I think about the ACLU and lawyers in general? I think they're opportunistics, self-serving fucks, who go around democtratic processes by manipulating the legal system, and ruin people's lives and reputations using insidious, malicious tactics. On the social scale they are right above child molesters and right below politicians.

 

Is it even necessary for me to point at that it's very unlikely that KKK has a) ever met an ACLU lawyer or b) is even remotely familiar with the details of even one ACLU case?

 

I know quite a few ACLU lawyers and, having been a public speaker for the organization for 15 years now, am quite familiar with it's mission, philosophy, and, at least in OR and WA, staffers. The latter have never failed to impress me with their personal and intellectual integrity, and service to country, and reasonableness, and realistic assessment of what they can and can't accomplish, given the political climate. Most ACLU attorneys, you know, those self serving fucks, are giving their time pro bono.

 

So, KKK, how much free volunteer time do you give your country each year, or are you too busy getting your military recruitment papers together so you can serve your country like all your hard fightin' WWI relatives?

 

As for the ACLU's paid staff attorneys, they work for a fraction of what they could make in commercial practice.

 

The majority of what the ACLU does is:

a) public education

b) discovery of government misconduct through FOIA (much of what we know about spying, torture, treatment of enemy combatants, abuse of immigrants, etc is from the ACLU's investigations...would you rather NOT know that stuff?)

c) Trying to put constitutional safeguards in legislation as it's being written.

d) Friend of the Court briefs offering constitutionally minded arguments in certain key cases.

e) Legal representation, including filing suit, for gross breaches constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties.

f) Legislative letter writing campaigns.

 

Pretty sleazy stuff, I'll admit. And every one a blatant end run around our democratic processes, for sure.

 

As for all those 'ruined lives and reputations'...name one.

 

I realize that there is a certain comfort in reaching for someone else's canned, kneejerk reaction when you're afraid of something you don't understand, rather than doing the hard work of coming up with your own educated opinions. There are apparently quite a few people who need alot of such comfort, these days.

Edited December 8, 2006 by tvashtarkatena

[mattp]

I'm not surprised to read KK's little rant here, but I gotta say: it smacks of uninformed knee jerk right wing lunacy to me. I certainly don't always support the ACLU position on a variety of issues, but they have been an important force in protecting American civil rights for nearly a hundred years - and in many arenas they have been the ONLY party looking out for the little guy. There are plenty of sleazy lawyers out there, but the ACLU as an organization is certainly NOT exhibit A.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I know quite a few ACLU lawyers and, having been a public speaker for the organization for 15 years now,

 

Like flies to shit - Trashie to the ACLU!

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'm not surprised to read KK's little rant here, but I gotta say: it smacks of uninformed knee jerk right wing lunacy to me. I certainly don't always support the ACLU position on a variety of issues, but they have been an important force in protecting American civil rights for nearly a hundred years - and in many arenas they have been the ONLY party looking out for the little guy. There are plenty of sleazy lawyers out there, but the ACLU as an organization is certainly NOT exhibit A.

 

 

knee jerk my ass. the ACLU (and sleazy lawyers) have been pulling their bullshit for as long as I remember. I've had decades to formulate my opinion.

 

 

[Dechristo]

knee jerk my ass

 

It is now everyone's civil liberty here to do so since you offered

[StevenSeagal]

Well I will take an imperfect ACLU and the mission they stand for at least in principle over the neocon pipe dream of an omniscient, secretive big brother government that makes people vanish into anonymous torture prisons under the guise of "homeland security" without a shred of oversight, and uses fear and intimidation to silence critics.

 

You still haven't answered the question- why should we expect the ACLU to also go after "our enemies"?

[mattp]

As I said, there are plenty of sleazy lawyers. But the big sleaze is the banal and self serving arguments of those who rail against "sleazy lawyers," in seeking to promote a complete removal of any accountability in such areas as medical malpractice, criminal corporate misconduct, or the blatant disregard for any reasonable standard of human decency and civil rights. And the fact that people fall for their arguments is not only pathetic, but dangerous.

[prole]

Easy guys, these folks are still frothing from their timely anti-Stalinist tirades. They'd lash out at Jesus, puppies, Dakota Fanning, or anybody else you put in front of them.

[counterfeitfake]

knee jerk my ass. the ACLU (and sleazy lawyers) have been pulling their bullshit for as long as I remember. I've had decades to formulate my opinion.

 

... and you've got 10 minutes to back it up in this thread before everyone agrees you lost the argument.

[StevenSeagal]

Easy guys, these folks are still frothing from their timely anti-Stalinist tirades. They'd lash out at Jesus, puppies, Dakota Fanning, or anybody else you put in front of them.

 

 

Sorry, but this is for Dakota Fanning:

[Off_White]

The ACLU has done something to offend everyone, that's a point in their favor in my book.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Woah. You leave a thread for 10 minutes to dis Lindsay Lohan and all hell breaks loose.

[StevenSeagal]

The ACLU has done something to offend everyone, that's a point in their favor in my book.

 

You mean like giving "special rights" to gays by prosecuting people who beat their heads in? Yeah. It's like they're trying to recruit us into being homo or something. The injustice.

 

The ACLU is Out for Justice and that makes them one of the good guys. I don't understand why they are Under Siege.

[cj001f]

As I said, there are plenty of sleazy lawyers. But the big sleaze is the banal and self serving arguments of those who rail against "sleazy lawyers," in seeking to promote a complete removal of any accountability in such areas as medical malpractice, criminal corporate misconduct, or the blatant disregard for any reasonable standard of human decency and civil rights. And the fact that people fall for their arguments is not only pathetic, but dangerous.

 

What about the people who hire the lawyers?

[tvashtarkatena]

What about sleazy software engineers who spray while collecting pay?

[olyclimber]

The way of the future.

[mattp]

Easy guys, these folks are still frothing from their timely anti-Stalinist tirades. They'd lash out at Jesus, puppies, Dakota Fanning, or anybody else you put in front of them.

 

Actually, KK and his buddies are just pissed off because they got their guys elected, had full control of the White House, Senate, and Congress, brought their dream-war into action, and now it turned out badly. All the flag-waving haters of the liberal terrorist sympathizer-appeasers in this nation gotta lash out at somebody, because it sure can't be THEIR fault this whole thing turned out badly.

 

And accountability? They sure as hell don't want that!