accident at Little Si

[Stella]

At the risk of exacerbating a stupid debate that should never have started and is out of place in this thread: do you people harping on the "via ferrata" even climb at WWI? If not, I don't know that your input is that relevant, and maybe you could rant elsewhere and restrict your posts on this thread to well-wishing.

[matt_warfield]

That's exactly what it would look like.....except remove all of the cable and all but two or three of the rungs. We're talking about a few sketchy vertical feet here.....not a walkway to the summit of Half Dome.

[ashw_justin]

Soon after you put this stuff in, some little kids come hiking by, see the iron invitation to climb around up there, one falls off. You feel strangely responsible, crag gets shut down for while, authorities remove all signs of development.

[sexual_chocolate]

I think Stella has the point here. Let the wacks who are bitching about something they know nothing about continue bitching, while those who climb actually implement a solution to an existing problem.

 

BTW, glad your friend is ok.

[Peter_Puget]

When there is only one car in town there is little need for a traffic light.

[matt_warfield]

Right now all the kids hike up to the top where they admire the view and are about 30 feet away from the top of WWI. Danger is around with or without a rope or rung.

 

And climbers will always examine accidents from the standpoint of preventing their own or others. Other recent threads have been way more off base than this one.

[ashw_justin]

I climb at Little Si, I know the traverse is a little sketchy. But that's not an excuse to fall there, and for the most part nobody does.

 

But I applaud your call to action, s_c. Develop away. oooo, actually you know what would be like totally sick? You bolt on some cool holds for the traverse, and maybe while you're at it you could chip out some routes that climb directly up to the ledge from the trail. Man, that would be awesome.

[sexual_chocolate]

That would be. And we could tape sick problems right off the deck, thereby facilitating the development of bouldering right there at WWI.

[ashw_justin]

lol, yeah I mean there's no reason to be half-assed about it.

[RuMR]

...

 

I go to boulder with my fat ass self at lunch and i come back to three pages of bickering instigated by my troll self!

 

BTW: Glad to hear the guy is ok...i've had two friends take diggers off that ledge...

[matt_m]

matt_m, I understand your disgust at the recurring via ferrata topic. But this has nothing to do with the bolting debate. via ferrata is exactly what's being proposed by some in this thread.

True - I was pointing out the repetitive themes of this site.

 

I would argue that 4 or 5 rungs of rebar (note how in the above picture the rungs would be nearly the same color as the rock at si) would provide ample fall protection while remaining low impact visually. certainly less impact than the concrete trail (smartly added to reduce erosion) further down the trail.

 

I come from a Gunks background where clean ethics were extremely high. That said, the climbers and land managers also understood that well thought out trails, decent/approach routes including the occasional wood rung ladder or fixed hand line (lemon squeeze at the gunks, stuff in the 'dacks or NH - squamish even) kept overall impact lower (small intentional impact vs larger unintentional impact either erosion or in this case a rescue) Climbers (and all outdoor recreational users) have to recognize the "situation" of the area when debating impacts / ethics and what have you. SCW is not in the same "situation" as Little Si. I'd be right behind you protesting if someone suggested fixed lines down the SCW decent. The solution does not match the "situation". A good example of this in action would be at the Gunks where bolted rap stations (in a place where it was voted long ago to no longer use them) where installed to reduce impact. These same events play out in the hiking and biking world as well hence bridges and elevated walkways being built when needed. Just as in construction, remaining too rigid when put under stress will eventually lead to failure. The truly enlightened recreational user is one who can recognize a "situation" and create the best possible outcome for all, regardless of personal practices and beliefs.

[minx]

I climb at Little Si, I know the traverse is a little sketchy. But that's not an excuse to fall there, and for the most part nobody does.

 

 

i thought you were a jerk with your first post in this thread. now i think you're an idiot. "no excuse for a fall there" WTF? i've fallen walking off a curb and ended up on crutches. i gather that you've never tripped or taken a misstep in your life.

 

it's just plain stupid this is what this thread has turned into. i really hope the guy is OK and i certainly don't blame him for not wanting his name posted here. i'm totally disgusted.

[mountainmatt]

I wish the injured climber all the best in recovery. Less spray, more good vibrations

 

Im pickin up good vibrations

Shes giving me excitations

Im pickin up good vibrations

(oom bop bop good vibrations)

Shes giving me excitations

(oom bop bop excitations)

Good good good good vibrations

(oom bop bop)

Shes giving me excitations

(oom bop bop excitations)

Good good good good vibrations

(oom bop bop)

Shes giving me excitations

(oom bop bop excitations)

[Punter]

Minx....ever tripped and fallen off your high horse?

Of course we all hope the guy is OK. I think we also care about the sport he probably cares about.....hence the discussion.

[ashw_justin]

i thought you were a jerk with your first post in this thread. now i think you're an idiot. "no excuse for a fall there" WTF? i've fallen walking off a curb and ended up on crutches. i gather that you've never tripped or taken a misstep in your life.

 

it's just plain stupid this is what this thread has turned into. i really hope the guy is OK and i certainly don't blame him for not wanting his name posted here. i'm totally disgusted.

 

 

As if he is asking for your pity?

 

I've never tripped or taken a misstep in my life AND BLAMED THE CURB. (ps. this comment is not directed at the victim)

 

And don't try to make this thread about protecting the victim. This is a thread in a discussion forum, not a recovery room. Of course I feel sorry for him. But there are some flawed ideas going around and I am compelled to debate them. Hopefully without resorting to meaningless personal insults.

[Rad]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery to the fallen climber.

 

........................

 

Regarding all the other fluff: didn't we just do this on the Yellow Jacket Tower thread?

 

I thought the mods decided (and I agree) that an accident announcement thread should have bare details and well wishes and no spray/extended discussion. Discussion is good, but start a separate via ferrata thread elsewhere and yank your wankers there. That way when the injured party, who seems to be on the mend, ends up dying in the hospital you don't look like even more of an ass than you already are.

 

More generally, perhaps mods should establish a protocol or lock accident announcement threads soon after the relevant details are divulged. Perhaps these could go into a new forum for accident announcements, a place where family members could read well wishes and condolences without being exposed to everything else.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery to the fallen climber.

 

........................

 

Regarding all the other fluff: didn't we just do this on the Yellow Jacket Tower thread?

 

I thought the mods decided (and I agree) that an accident announcement thread should have bare details and well wishes and no spray/extended discussion. Start a separate via ferrata thread elsewhere and yank your wankers there. That way when the injured party, who seems to be on the mend, ends up dying in the hospital you don't look like even more of an ass than you already are.

 

More generally, perhaps mods should establish a protocol or lock accident announcement threads soon after the relevant details are divulged.

 

Alex:

[ashw_justin]

Fair enough. But is there really any point to a thread that says:

 

"A guy fell."

 

"Bummer, hope he's ok."

 

-the end?

 

It's called a forum.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Isn't that the basic literary outline of "Accidents in Mountaineering"?

[G-spotter]

ANAM has discussion of the accident, in some cases by the vic, in some cases by a ranger or rescuer. It also says what was done wrong. I don't know about you but I have had an ANAM title like "OFF ROUTE, CLIMBING WITHOUT ROPE, IMPROPER EQUIPMENT, CLIMBING ABOVE ABILITY LEVEL, NO HELMET, CLIMBING WHILE INTOXICATED" flash into my head more than once while sketching around. There's a lot more of judgement and critique in ANAM than you seem to admit. There is rarely any "Dude, MCTTFAF, get well soon xoxo".

[KaskadskyjKozak]

To the fixed-assistance people: is this what you want to see at your local crag?

 

At the risk of sounding insensitive, moral of the story is don't fall. "Accidents" like these are caused by bad decisions. If you didn't think you had to be careful while traversing that ledge... now you know. Rebar isn't going to protect you from bad judgement.

 

And if there are people in the way, you're just going to have to come out of the depths of hardcoreness for a moment, to ask them to accomodate your passage.

 

you guys never learn your lesson

[ashw_justin]

Oh I'm sorry, how dare I try to debate an issue brought up by someone else. Tell me oh wise ones, is the answer to turn the world into a fabricated amusement park? Or is it to ignore the lessons of painful mistakes, in favor of calling everything an unfortunate accident?

 

Again none of my criticism is toward the victim, it's toward the pathetic reactions people have to this accident.

[minx]

Minx....ever tripped and fallen off your high horse?

Of course we all hope the guy is OK. I think we also care about the sport he probably cares about.....hence the discussion.

 

no, but i've fallen off my short horse more than once.

 

the topic is fine but i don't think ashw-justin's comments were, imo. he certainly implied that the victim was an idiot for falling and shouldn't have done it. well no shit. no one ever should've fallen but plenty of folks do. you can paint me out to be the queen bitch all you want. istill think he was being a jerk.

 

a debate about protecting that area is fine. perhaps better suited to a new thread or whatever. taking a cheap shot at the victim isn't fine.

Edited June 16, 2006 by minx

[ashw_justin]

Yeah sorry about that, just my inflammatory way of saying that the awareness of personal responsibility is really the most important type of safety.

[choss_crawler]

Ummm yeah, reducing a 5.4 move down to a 5.3+ move by adding rebar would totally solve the problem. Pointless...

 

The bolts are already there if someone feels the need to add a fixed rope, but honestly who would actually clip into that. Suck it up.