Gas Prices

[TREETOAD]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

 

This is brilliant! May I use this?

[mattp]

Jay, two points:

 

(1) there clearly IS a conspiratorial relationship of some kind. The close ties of the Bush family with "big oil" is very well documented and the Bin Laden Family was the only anybody allowed to fly on September 12, 2001. What do you want to bet somebody has a plan for making lots of money this summer and then looking at lower gas prices just before the election?

 

(2) Yes, the evil corn lobby is getting rich off your tax money and I feel you pain but the fact is we KNOW we are going to run out of oil and our use of it is destroying our air and is a disaster for international politics. One of the most important things our tax money SHOULD be doing is subsidizing efforts to switch to a whole new energy paradigm. Maybe corn-based ethanol is part of the solution, maybe not, but it would be just plain stupid to hope for a magical free market treatment of a problem like how to change the fundamental basis for our entire economy. Just as now, when concerns about supply are making the Oil companies rich, the drive for profit is not going to stimulate a concern for what is really in our national inerest. They just don't have much incentive to worry about American foreign relations or air quality or our standard of living in 2020.

[Peter_Puget]

Jay, two points:

 

(1) there clearly IS a conspiratorial relationship of some kind. The close ties of the Bush family with "big oil" is very well documented and the Bin Laden Family was the only anybody allowed to fly on September 12, 2001. What do you want to bet somebody has a plan for making lots of money this summer and then looking at lower gas prices just before the election?

 

Since some might not understand Matt's sense of humor I think it might make sense to post this:

 

The 9/11 Commission Report (pp. 329-330):

 

"First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopenning of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001. To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.

 

Second, we found no evidence of any political intervention. (Discussion of how decision was made by Richard Clarke in coordination with the FBI).

 

Third, we believe that the FBI conducted a satisfactory screening of Saudi nationals who left the United States on charter flights. (discussion of the screening). The FBI interviewed all persons of interest on these flights prior to their departures. They concluded that none of the passengers was connected to the 9/11 attacks and have since found no evidence to change that conclusion."

[murraysovereign]

... but it would be just plain stupid to hope for a magical free market treatment of a problem like how to change the fundamental basis for our entire economy.

Unlike when the free market changed the fundamental basis of our entire economy in the 19th century - I think the guys in the marketing department called that one the "industrial revolution"? And also unlike when the free market changed the fundamental basis of our entire economy in the 20th century with the adoption of petroleum-based fuels as the most efficient, plentiful, adaptable and inexpensive way of transforming our entire way of life?

 

The free market has changed the fundamental basis of our entire economy a number of times now, and will continue to do so in the future. As oil price shocks such as the present instance become more frequent and protracted, the free market will move away from its reliance on oil, just as it has in the past moved away from horse-drawn buggies, sail-powered shipping, guild-controlled small scale production of consumer goods, and whale oil lamps. Has any of us even seen a whale oil lamp, much less actually used one? But it wasn't all that long ago that whaling was as important an industry as drilling for oil is now.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Ayn-Rand-worshipping ethical objectivist, but I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the free market's ability to adapt to changing circumstances and conditions. It doesn't happen overnight, but it happens - again and again. But the key driver in the process is the great mass of consumers. As long as they (we) just sit there doing nothing, the market will be quite happy to sit there with us. But if enough of us get up off our asses and start heading in a new direction, eventually the market will have no choice but to get up off its ass, too, and follow us. So if we really want to start changing the way things work, then let's get started - because we're not getting anywhere just sitting here.

[underworld]

but i'm not using any gas sitting here. i'm doing something by not doing anything.

[G-spotter]

but i'm not using any gas sitting here. i'm doing something by not doing anything.

 

that's the Tao, but you're in the wrong forum.

[klenke]

but i'm not using any gas sitting here.

Actually, this is not true in so many ways. Think about it.

 

Oil and gas and its associated petroleum products are pervasive in American society and really global "society" as a whole. It's just a matter of how deeply you want to delve into the point of indirect use.

 

As an example:

We in the Pacific Northwest typically get our power from dams. The energy source is water pressure head. But these dams exist because we maintain them. Maintaining them requires using source materials, many of which are either made from oil products (like plastic or asphalt) or are manufactured off-site using oil (as an energy source) or using a tool that itself is made of oil products or was made in another factory that uses oil products, and so on down the supply line. Further, the computers that run the dam are made of products made from oil or using oil as an energy source (for instance, gas power plants are quite prevalent on the East Coast). Then there are all the maintenance vehicles running on gas (natural or standard), the delivery trucks running on gas, the employees driving to the dam in gas-powered cars, and so on and so on.

 

You could become a total mountain man and live off the grid but you would still use oil-based products regularly. You could join a tribe in the Amazon, perhaps.

 

If you want to change America's dependence on oil you have to start small with new technologies (al a hybrid vehicles or more efficient power plants) and get the snowball rolling from there. The problem is getting that growing snowball to roll up hill: easy to plan, hard to actually do.

 

Or, to analogize another way, plant the seeds of oil-disconnection now and watch the big conservation tree grow from it. But you can't shift the paradigm overnight. It will take many years. Wait for it. Wait...wait....wait....

[olyclimber]

but i'm not using any gas sitting here. i'm doing something by not doing anything.

 

butt you're passing it

[underworld]

'scuze me

 

[Couloir]

Since some might not understand Matt's sense of humor I think it might make sense to post this:

 

"First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopenning of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001. To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.

 

Second, we found no evidence of any political intervention. (Discussion of how decision was made by Richard Clarke in coordination with the FBI).

 

Third, we believe that the FBI conducted a satisfactory screening of Saudi nationals who left the United States on charter flights. (discussion of the screening). The FBI interviewed all persons of interest on these flights prior to their departures. They concluded that none of the passengers was connected to the 9/11 attacks and have since found no evidence to change that conclusion."

Peter, please don't try and muddy this all up with the facts.

[olyclimber]

 

The Super Offical truth:

Here are all the facts. its all true.

[olyclimber]

The Church of Scientology claims that the 9/11 hijackers were brainwashed by psychiatrists who were the real masterminds behind the attacks.

[ScottP]

Jay, two points:

 

(1) there clearly IS a conspiratorial relationship of some kind. The close ties of the Bush family with "big oil" is very well documented and the Bin Laden Family was the only anybody allowed to fly on September 12, 2001. What do you want to bet somebody has a plan for making lots of money this summer and then looking at lower gas prices just before the election?

 

(2) (snip)

 

 

"Iraq’s oil resources are vast, surpassed only by Saudi Arabia, and as cheap to extract as Saudi oil. The country’s 115 billion barrels of proven oil reserves are matched by perhaps an equal quantity yet to be explored. “Since no geological survey has been conducted in Iraq since the 1970s, experts believe that the proven reserves underestimate the country’s actual oil wealth, which could be as large as 250 billion barrels. Three decades of political instability and war have kept Iraq from developing 55 of its 70 proven oil fields. Eight of these fields could harbor more than a billion barrels each of “easy oil” which is close to the surface and inexpensive to extract. “There is nothing like it anywhere else in the world,” says Gerald Butt, Gulf editor of the Middle East Economic Survey. “It’s the big prize.”

 

Iraq’s prewar production was three million barrels a day and present production capacity is put at 2.8 million barrels a day. In fact, because of deteriorating equipment, it is hard put to reach that figure, and it currently exports less than a million barrels a day. It is estimated that, with adequate investment, Iraq’s production can reach seven to eight million barrels a day within five years. That compares with Saudi Arabia’s current production of 7.1 million barrels a day, close to 10 percent of world consumption.

 

In June 2001, France and Russia proposed in the Security Council to remove restrictions on foreign investment in the Iraqi oil industry. However, the United States and U.K. predictably killed the proposal. American companies are barred by U.S. law from investing in Iraq, and so all the contracts for development of Iraqi fields have been cornered by companies from other countries.

Lukoil’s (Russian) contract to drill the West Qurna field is valued at $20 billion, and Zarubezneft’s (Russian) concession to develop the bin Umar field is put at up to $90 billion. The total value of Iraq’s foreign contract awards could reach $1.1 trillion, according to the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook."

 

Food for thought...

[ZimZam]

I've been riding my bike to work since last year when prices skyrocketed. It's 30 miles roundtrip and takes me about 2hrs. I've had to adjust for the time but it's a blast cruising past cars bogged down in traffic, and knowing that I'm saving $$$$. It works for the Nederlanders. When I do have to drive I use our 4 cyl. VW's. I spend the money I've saved on gear and

[Peter_Puget]

 

 

All that "vastness" sounds pretty amazing. Lots of dollars. Here is some more food for thought.

 

(a) Iran's GDP 2005: 552,800,000,000

(b) US GDP 2005: 12,410,000,000,000

(a)/(b)~ 4.4%

linky

 

1st quarter growth rate US economy 2006: 4.8

 

 

I just saw the Scott's link was to the Monthly Review. Those under 40 might not know the monthly review was a communist magazine for years edited by "marxist economist" Paul Sweezey. I can remember reading so called analysis of the 70s Oil Crisis from the Monthly Review back in the 70s. Go read them now and see how accurate they were.

 

Read it and you'll see just how apocalyptic cults can continue to exist after repeated prophesies have failed to come true.

[EWolfe]

Nostradamus hates you.

[mattp]

Read it and you'll see just how apocalyptic cults can continue to exist after repeated prophesies have failed to come true.

 

Without even checking the links, I am willing to guess you are right that somebody with a political agenda made some incorrect predictions. But misguided or even delusional communists are old news.

 

The same derisive criticism could be applied to those who said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and if we didn't stop him [now] or [very soon} (you pick), we might find "proof" in the form of a mushroom cloud over Manhattan. No?

[olyclimber]

[archenemy]

I've been riding my bike to work since last year when prices skyrocketed. It's 30 miles roundtrip and takes me about 2hrs. I've had to adjust for the time but it's a blast cruising past cars bogged down in traffic, and knowing that I'm saving $$$$. It works for the Nederlanders. When I do have to drive I use our 4 cyl. VW's. I spend the money I've saved on gear and

So you ride 15 miles to work in the morning and it takes and hour? Do you have to ride on the street or is there a bike path the whole way? I want to start riding my bike to work, but I am a little bit scared of getting mowed down by a driver.

[JayB]

I think that there's a government agency that will mail you a "Seattle Bike Map" for free if you send an e-mail asking for one. I imagine there must be some sort of a bike commuter discussion board for the city as well where you can get some beta on commuter routes that offer a decent compromise between speed and safety.

[archenemy]

I think that there's a government agency that will mail you a "Seattle Bike Map" for free if you send an e-mail asking for one. I imagine there must be some sort of a bike commuter discussion board for the city as well where you can get some beta on commuter routes that offer a decent compromise between speed and safety.

Yeah, I picked one of those up. The guy at the bike shop explained the path I'd be taking, and said it was a little tough to follow in some spots. I think I might have to go on the weekend the first time so I can get lost and not be late for work.

[olyclimber]

the Seattle bike map packet comes with paper bullseyes for you to pin on your cycling jacket

[sexual_chocolate]

I just saw the Scott's link was to the Monthly Review. Those under 40 might not know the monthly review was a communist magazine for years edited by "marxist economist" Paul Sweezey. I can remember reading so called analysis of the 70s Oil Crisis from the Monthly Review back in the 70s. Go read them now and see how accurate they were.

 

Read it and you'll see just how apocalyptic cults can continue to exist after repeated prophesies have failed to come true.

 

I think one can read the information less for its predictive qualities and more for its contextualization of the "Iraq situation"; as such, it's much better than any prediction it might be making (what was the prediction, by the way?).

 

The political allegience of those who point out the truth has nothing to do with the quality of the truth itself. To say so is to fall in line with the worst of the McCarthy efforts.

[klenke]

Those Seattle bike maps are available online: Bam!

[ScottP]

I just saw the Scott's link was to the Monthly Review. Those under 40 might not know the monthly review was a communist magazine for years edited by "marxist economist" Paul Sweezey. I can remember reading so called analysis of the 70s Oil Crisis from the Monthly Review back in the 70s. Go read them now and see how accurate they were.

 

Read it and you'll see just how apocalyptic cults can continue to exist after repeated prophesies have failed to come true.

 

I think one can read the information less for its predictive qualities and more for its contextualization of the "Iraq situation"; as such, it's much better than any prediction it might be making (what was the prediction, by the way?).

 

The political allegience of those who point out the truth has nothing to do with the quality of the truth itself. To say so is to fall in line with the worst of the McCarthy efforts.

I'm wondering if PP even read the article I linked...it seemed to me more of a historical perspective than some kind of "apocalyptic" prediction.

 

The Prediction (as I see it):

"The hour of the invasion draws near. As we write this, on December 28, 2002, the Iraqi government has told a solidarity conference in Baghdad that “he who attacks our country will lose. We will fight from village to village, from city to city and from street to street in every city....Iraq’s oil, nationalized by the president...from the hands of the British and the Americans in 1972...will remain in the hands of this people and this leadership.”

 

The Iraqi armed forces may not be able to put up extended resistance to the onslaught. But the Iraqi people have not buckled to American dictates for the past more than eleven years of torment. They will not meekly surrender to the imminent American-led military occupation of their country. And that fact itself carries grave consequences for American imperialism’s broader designs."