JosephH Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Well, if you read what I posted you see I didn't "defame" anything - read those emails again. And my principle point to Stephen in our phone conversations was more about climbing gyms as commercial engines driving the "sport". That their market expansion strategy of sponsoring leagues in public schools is more about insuring and increasing the annual tidal flows through their gyms than about climbing per se. My main concern about gyms has always been that increasing annual tidal flow of climbers a majority of whom will always be dependent on bolted sports routes. That these commercial "engines" and their tidal flow now represent a bedrock element in our impact on crags. Increasing the "scope" of these "engines" into by pushing into public schools in the form of leagues will inevitably increase impact on crags, bolting, and misuse as well. You cannot increase the commercial market base of gyms without increasing the footprint of climbing and so raise our profile with land managers. I have no problem whatsoever claiming to be completely and utterly selfish. I would like nothing more than to see climbing burn out as a popular fad/trend and have the demographics head south fast. But gyms, and particularly their expansion in to public schools, colleges, and eventually the olympics make this extremely unlikely. Climbing is now firmly entrenched into suburban pop culture and commercial interests clearly want it, and their cash flow, totally mainstreamed. So many of you may be fine with, or even enthusiastic about, this trend - but when it results in more impact, abuses, rules, restrictions, and closures down the road don't be naive about how and why it all happened and jump on cc to whine about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 well...my guess is that it will go the way of Europe...ie there is climbing in every single town and it is totally mainstream and accepted by the society and landowners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 ...cue...Pope to post via ferrata photo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'd rather see youth become inspired by and pursue the life vertical, in any form, than atrophy in front of a computer screen no matter the resultant environmental conflicts. I choose to assume an inevitable increased populace that is aware of environmental impact and a louder voice in governmental decision-making than a mindless horde of wilderness desecrators. I may be Pollyannish, but will not under-estimate the propensity of the human psyche to experience and expand in awe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yes, I believe there is a happy medium that could be attained, but as in any rise of a sport there will be a period where the reckless and plain idiotic people will be a major focus. Then, like everything else in America, there will be some major tragedy that will then put the whole sport in a spotlight and then a bunch of laws will be passed and the man will start clamping down. It's inevitable, so like I say "If I'm going to hell, I might as well enjoy the ride". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 well...my guess is that it will go the way of Europe...ie there is climbing in every single town and it is totally mainstream and accepted by the society and landowners... Yeah and every out of the way, tiny, bumfuck town in Eastern Washington will have a cheap four-star restaurant serving prosciutto wrapped melon, basil encrusted grouse in green tomato chutney, and the local sangioviese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yes, I believe there is a happy medium good, nice to have a pollyana. Count me in "the Spectacle" camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Yeah and every out of the way, tiny, bumfuck town in Eastern Washington will have a cheap four-star restaurant serving prosciutto wrapped melon, basil encrusted grouse in green tomato chutney, and the local sangioviese. Sounds delicious...but back to competition...what if every out of the way, tiny, bumfuck town in Eastern Washington had the Iron Chef? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 fuck yeah!!! IF I'M GONNA BE FAT I'M GONNA ENJOY IT!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The french eat and drink well, and they climb pretty hard. But maybe its just the lycra and the cigarettes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) FWIW, and that migh tnot be much, but my observation about climbers these days is that most consider gym climbing to be 'climbing', and that those that don't and actually venture outside will never be found more than 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from the nearest paved highway. If you don't fall into either of these camps, you are already in the minority. But then, I may be talking out of my ass just to see who has an aneurysm about it first. Edited March 9, 2006 by foraker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 well...my guess is that it will go the way of Europe...ie there is climbing in every single town and it is totally mainstream and accepted by the society and landowners... Being an espresso swilling, fancy-cheese loving, beret wearing ( ), Europe worshipping liberal pinko sports climber, I would love me some of that. I think, too, that there are examples of that type of scenario cropping up, as a result of climbing's popularity. Good examples are parks such as Smith where climbers and parks management work together to be good stewards of a heavily used area; Red River Gorge, where there is a strong, proactive coalition of climbers working to maintain the area and open new areas nearby, working with land managers, etc.; Horse Pens 40, where climbers came together to save a climbing resource...all of these are examples of climbers being proactive and working with each other or land managers to expand and preserve the sport and the sport's resources. More interesting are private parks or ranches that might not have originally been created for climbing, but have seen climbing becoming popular, and have opened their property to climbers. Most prominently recently is the Horseshoe Canyon Ranch in Arkansas (see the new R&I, or Dosage III w/ Sharma's Witness the Fitness), which seems to have more of a ropin' and ridin' thing going, but has welcomed climbers, and is fast becoming recognized as a premier bouldering destination. I believe there is a similar area in Tennessee, and I know there is one in Texas, as well, albeit more specifically climbing-focused. There is also Crawdad Canyon in southern Utah, which I think was a hotsprings and swimming pool area first, then expanded into climbing. While I'm sure a lot of you haters will just decry the commercialization of the sport, I would say that what it signifies is the popularity of climbing encouraging the appropriation and preservation of climbing resources for climbers. It may be commercial in some places, but as the purchase of land for its climbing value becomes more common, I would think we will see just as many examples that are more park-like, such as HP40, the newer areas at the Red, etc. Once crags have a value as a resource to be used, that helps tip the balance in our favor, and perhaps against the use of these areas as places where resources would be extracted (e.g. Indian Creek, Oak Flat...where next?). Ramble, ramble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'd rather see youth become inspired by and pursue the life vertical, in any form, than atrophy in front of a computer screen Ah, perhaps those two ends may not be as mutually exclusive as you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 ...and don't forget el potero chico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 FWIW, and that migh tnot be much, but my observation about climbers these days is that most consider gym climbing to be 'climbing', and that those that don't and actually venture outside will never be found more than 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from the nearest paved highway. If you don't fall into either of these camps, you are already in the minority. But then, I may be talking out of my ass just to see who has an aneurysm about it first. MOTHERFUCKINGSLANDEROUSLIARSACKOFSHITFASCISTGRRRRUUUUMBLEGRKRKFRGARKINGSCHNRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH.... Oh, shit! My brain! CALL 911! I think I'm aneurysming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Sport climbing and competitions to Alpine Climbing/Exploring I would compare to what Nascar is for Domestic car manufacturing. We wouldn't have many of the safety features of today's cars if it were for some of those racers taking risks and finding out what the cars can really do. Maybe a bad anology, but competitions advance the technologies (look at some of the new styles of cams) and as of late it seems to be focused on preservation. I think if you were to look at the number of pitons purchased compared to cams over the last decade you would see the piton usage has gone done and clean protection has gone up. Hey, I think I just linked up this thread back to Aliens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 FWIW, and that migh tnot be much, but my observation about climbers these days is that most consider gym climbing to be 'climbing', and that those that don't and actually venture outside will never be found more than 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from the nearest paved highway. If you don't fall into either of these camps, you are already in the minority. But then, I may be talking out of my ass just to see who has an aneurysm about it first. MOTHERFUCKINGSLANDEROUSLIARSACKOFSHITFASCISTGRRRRUUUUMBLEGRKRKFRGARKINGSCHNRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH.... Oh, shit! My brain! CALL 911! I think I'm aneurysming! you spelled "fucking" wrong...dumb ass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) FWIW, and that migh tnot be much, but my observation about climbers these days is that most consider gym climbing to be 'climbing', and that those that don't and actually venture outside will never be found more than 1/4 to 1/2 mile away from the nearest paved highway. If you don't fall into either of these camps, you are already in the minority. But then, I may be talking out of my ass just to see who has an aneurysm about it first. Seriously, though, I think this is more of a snide, snarky misconception that is popular among certain segments (read: old and crotchety segments) of the climbing population--you people know who you are. Of the people I either know or encounter enough to chit-chat with at the gym, all of them climb outside, and use the gym as training, or just a place to enjoy climbing movement, because they can't get enough otherwise. There are many more who I don't know, but have seen out at the crags plenty of times. In places like the rainy PacNW, some of us do consider gym climbing to be "climbing," as climbing outside is often simply not an option when you are a crag climber and it is pouring rain for more of the year than not. Even if that were not the case, however, is it either surprising or a particularly big deal that people might consider gym climbing to be "climbing?" There are plenty of people who think ClearChannel's focus group-selected, computerized broadcasts of bubblegum mall-pop constitute "listening to music;" plenty of people think McDonald's, Denny's, and Taco Bell are "food;" plenty of people who think Budweiser and Miller are "beer;" people who think Folgers is "good coffee;" people who think People and TV Guide constitute "journalism;" people who think 128kbps MP3s "sound fine;" people who view strip-malls and subdivisions as "progress..." See any kind of a trend there? Edited March 9, 2006 by Johnny_Tuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 "Seriously, though, I think this is more of a snide, snarky misconception " Miss my point much there junior? I'll be sure to use a sledge hammer next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 "Seriously, though, I think this is more of a snide, snarky misconception " Miss my point much there junior? I'll be sure to use a sledge hammer next time. Shaddup, I'm old nuff ta use the computer an' go to 7-11 by myself and it's five blox away, so there! Really, though, very much your same comment has been thrown out there plenty more seriously, by plenty of legitimately crotchety individuals right here in our own cyber-sandbox. It's fuggin' scandalous, brah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Seriously, though, I think this is more of a snide, snarky misconception that is popular among certain segments (read: old and crotchety segments) of the climbing population--you people know who you are. Of the people I either know or encounter enough to chit-chat with at the gym, all of them climb outside, and use the gym as training, or just a place to enjoy climbing movement, because they can't get enough otherwise. There are many more who I don't know, but have seen out at the crags plenty of times. You are experiencing the PNW anomily. I know few of the people at climbing gyms in the Washington DC area climbed outside - where there's now a highschool climbing league. Likewise upstate NY, FL, CA, etc. Climbing is no longer confined to areas with natural rock or even close proximity to rock, hence climbers who've never touched rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 hmmm...plastic or Great Falls and Carderrock...tough call there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 hmmm...plastic or Great Falls and Carderrock...tough call there... The routes changed more often at Carderock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 You are experiencing the PNW anomily. I know few of the people at climbing gyms in the Washington DC area climbed outside - where there's now a highschool climbing league. Likewise upstate NY, FL, CA, etc. Climbing is no longer confined to areas with natural rock or even close proximity to rock, hence climbers who've never touched rock. OK, but is this a problem somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 that place makes 38 look like ceuse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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