JayB Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Looks good, Jay, but you distinctly said "all mining" takes place in remote areas, and that is just not quite true. Yes, it is plainly obvious, I suppose, that they don't generally mine near cities and residential areas and we need not waste our time quibbling over that fact. As to the statisitcs about the relatively high wages, I am sure that, all other things being equal, workers would rather work a safe job for the same pay so there is some upward pressure on wages for high-risk employment. However, I don't think that over the course of history that has been sufficient to overcome the unequal bargainning power enjoyed by mine operators and miners. In a quick Internet search we find only statistics supplied by mining companies or the state agencies connected to "econimic development and promotion." It'd be interesting to know just what the dead guys in Tallmansville were earning, and how much their cousins who worked above ground in the immediate area earned by comparison. My guess is that neither the State of West Virginia or the Mining Association of America can be counted on to provide accurate statistics. If I'm remembering correctly I heard the reporter on NPR say that they were making $70,000 per-year on average. They also said that most of them had mixed feelings about the work, at best, and that they worried about the risks - but that the money was so much better than they could make in any other line of work that they were qualified for that they were willing to endure the unpleasant aspects of their jobs and live with the risks. The mines weren't paying higher wages because they wanted to, but because they had to. As long as energy prices remain high, the differential between mining wages and non-mining wages will continue to increase throughout coal-country. Quote
JayB Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 JayB: I buried the nub of my argument. Try this: Assuming you are correct in your assertion that that the miners must have made more money than others in the community who had safer jobs, do you believe the miners in Tallmansville were likely to have been fairly compensated for the risks they took? Is this intended to suggest in any way that we shouldn't feel sorry for them or their families because they knew the risks and glady accepted them? Nope. I am not sure that you can make a global determination about what constitutes adequate compensation for a given degree of risk - but if someone decides to enter a given line of work for a given wage/salary, then its fair to assume that they concluded that the compensation was adequate at the time. I suspect that quite a few miners, and others in dangerous professions often feel very different about the compensation-to-risk ratio that their job entails once they get married and start a family, but feel trapped because they know that they can't make the same wages anywhere else, and have financial committments that preclude any kind of a career change. The accident in the mine is tragic, but even with perfect enforcement of the pertinent safety regulations - there will always be accidents, and as long as society allows people to choose what field that they want to go into - there will always be people willing to assume higher risk for higher pay. Quote
mattp Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 [i asked if he had known the specific details of the salary scale discussion when he posted his inital "it is known fact that hazardous jobs always earn more pay" or whatver -- this is a crude synopsis, I admit -- and then asked if he was now suggesting this meant the mining operators might be seen as less responsible or that we should have less sympathy for the victims, but when I posted it I saw Jay had answered my questions in a post entered while I was composing mine] Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 No and no. Longer version above. FWIW, there are plenty of Americans who travel to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other dangerous places because they can make large amounts of cash in a short amount of time. And they do so despite the known risks. Ditto for crab fishers in the Bering Sea... Quote
mattp Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Right on, Jay. Good response. Now, are you still gonna argue that.... Quote
Distel32 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 grammar and mining, hand in hand since the creation of the heavens and earth whatever, nobody speaks perfectly, I look at gary and think "he sent a package 3 days before xmas and expected it to be there on time! what a dumb ass, failure of our system!" we about finished here? mining: huge in mongolia, rampant corruption, but a few high spots where mining does help the local communities. environmentally bad? probably, necessity? probably. so what's your point? Quote
AlpineK Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Here's my take on the whole thing: Gary is an idiot savant, and he will never make the avarage wage of a miner which is $50 grand/year. All the rest of you would be so fucking fired if you worked for me. Do your bosses know how much time ya'll devote to this drivel. Quote
Distel32 Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 hey K, you need a tree cutter for those tough short overhanging cave like trees......? Quote
RuMR Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 Here's my take on the whole thing: Gary is an idiot savant, and he will never make the avarage wage of a miner which is $50 grand/year. All the rest of you would be so fucking fired if you worked for me. Do your bosses know how much time ya'll devote to this drivel. why don't you go trim a bush, punter... Quote
AlpineK Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 hey K, you need a tree cutter for those tough short overhanging cave like trees......? Small tree specialist? Right now it's fruit tree pruning season. All the rest of us use orchard ladders, but you wouldn't need them. Hey Rudy. Quote
Dechristo Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanconiosis I almost posted this exact same thing. This is too damn bizarre, Dechristo. Are you my alter-ego? No, but I may be your altar-ego. Just wait and see. The church will be full of friends and family when your altar-ego takes over and starts spewing inappropriate syllables all over the place: addressing the priest as "Preacher Pederast" and then, turning to your intended, assuming a posture and facial contortion reminiscent of Billy Bob in Slingblade and saying with a southern drawl in a loud voice for the entire gathered to hear, "you sure got a pretty mouth". Quote
Billygoat Posted January 5, 2006 Posted January 5, 2006 pneumonultramicroscopicsilicavolcanoconiosis Quote
archenemy Posted January 6, 2006 Posted January 6, 2006 [quote I suspect that quite a few miners, and others in dangerous professions often feel very different about the compensation-to-risk ratio that their job entails once they get married and start a family, but feel trapped because they know that they can't make the same wages anywhere else, and have financial committments that preclude any kind of a career change. I agree with your assessments; except the one above. I only pause at the assumption of getting trapped and not being able to make the same wages somewhere else. These are choices people make. Some decide to have kids before shaping their lives and careers around this decision. Some folks make financial commitments (I assume you mean take on debt) that were perhaps imprudent. Hey, we're all human. But lets not remove the individual decision making from the system that might later make a person feel trapped. I know you already know this, and my comments are only a small refinement on your commentary... Quote
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