erikn Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Summary: I am seeking input from folks who have done the climb Stevens Pass Motel at Midnight Rock. The question is whether to add a bolt at the start. If you know of anyone who has done this route, please contact me. Details: I recently was at Midnight Rock, had a great time climbing Sting and ROTC and Easter Overhang. Initially I tried to lead Stevens Pass Motel (rated 12a), but backed off because the start seems dangerous. After doing ROTC, I cleaned a bunch of ferns and dirt from SPM on rappel, and then tried SPM on toprope. It is a fabulous climb, but I feel it needs an additional bolt at the start. I talked to Peter Croft, the first ascensionist, by phone this morning. Bottom line: he asked me to get more input from others who have done the route. Peter doesn't remember the start very well. He agrees that it could be that some key flake has come off or whatever to make the start more difficult than when he did it. He is against unnecessary bolting, but in favor of minimal bolting to make the climb safe. Here is my experience: There is an initial exposed bit of climbing (maybe 5.10a) on sloping rock (maybe 60 to 70 degrees?) up to a bunch of jugs and wide (3 inch or so) horizontal crack running under a small roof that juts out about 3 feet. I got some gear in under the roof, but being a roof the gear needs a runner. At this point you are looking at pulling up onto some very thin face climbing on thin flakes. You have a couple of thin flakes for face holds, you are going for other thin flakes, and there is only a slight bump for your foot at the lip. I cranked up there, and was standing with my foot on the lip. At that point my feet were a good 6 feet above my pro. The first bolt is still a good 4 feet above my hands. I tried to make the next move, but didn't find the 'better' flake (its a little hidden, I found it later on TR). I then realized I was unable to go up, and also could not down-climb because of the roof nature of the climb there. So I had to jump. Jumping at that point is scary. As I said, my pro is 6 feet below my feet. Normally, I would be OK with that. But this is near the start of the climb and there are two hazards: the sloping rock below you, and just a little further down are boulders at the base. So I jumped, and my right foot impacted the sloping rock a bit hard. I shrugged it off and proceeded to climb and hike the rest of the day with no problem. The next day however, I was limping a bit as my right foot sustained a bit of damage. Three days later the foot is pretty much OK. Later that day I did the climb on TR. I was able to do the initial move over the roof, and get into the crack. This is pretty hard insecure face climbing past two ancient button head bolts (which need to be replaced BTW). I give it 11c/d in that section. (There is a wild move where I was pinching the bottom of the dihedral to get into a layback to get up into the dihedral crack). So, I'm proposing to place a bolt about 3 feet above the lip of the roof, roughly 5 feet below the existing first bolt. Given how dirty the climb was, I don't expect that many people have actually led this climb. But please contact me if you know of someone who has. Thanks! --Erik N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 All you 5.12 climbers, don't all chime in at once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I haven't done it, but from the description you post it sounds quite likely Peter did it exactly as you find it today as none of the exposure you describe (16-18ft. between points of protection sound like anything he would have been intimidated by. He's the author of more than a few scary starts [, middles, and ends] and hopefully they won't all get bolted just because someone fell on one of them. I sympathize and empathize with taking a dive and getting hurt, but that doesn't in anyway mean it should be bolted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 One guy wants a bolt, maybe somebody else would wants two. Maybe chopping a jug or two would make it even safer and increase traffic. Where does it stop? Enjoy the top-rope. Or cowboy up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 For once in my life I have to agree with pope. Enjoy the TR or sac it up and lead it the way it is. Don´t add a bolt to this climb to dumb it downto a lower level. Climbing will never be ssafe, so don´t try to pretend it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashclimber Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Dont bother asking on this site...everyone will have a different opinion. The problem is the biggest mouths usually cant even climb 5.11...So just stick with those who can actually climb 5.12 or have climbed the route. If the FA gave permission to protect the route by adding 1 single bolt cause a key flake might have come off...Well I say do it. Sometimes its better just to add the bolt and not say anything after getting permission...Cause its not like any of the loud mouths will ever climb it anyways...plus they wouldn't even know if you added the bolt. PM me if you add it...Ill probably be up there and give it red-point attempt this Fall if it looks safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikn Posted August 30, 2005 Author Share Posted August 30, 2005 I (and the first ascensionist) am more interested in hearing from people who have actually done the climb. I can live with it the way it is. I can stick clip the first (badly placed) bolt. Or I can rehearse the first moves and do them without the stick clip. It just struck me as a great climb that deserves a better bolting job. IMHO, there are climbs that are bold and terrifying and even dangerous to lead, and that is part of the experience, maybe even the main attraction. There are other climbs that are just great climbs, where the danger is not the point of the climb; then having a dangerous start just keeps people off the climb. I'm just trying to find out if there is some consensus about this particular climb, whether the dangerous start is an important part of the climb or not. So far I've gotten a private email from one person who has done the climb over 20 times and agrees that a bolt would improve the climb. My understanding about adding a bolt in this situation is to check with the first ascensionist and the community, that's what I'm doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 by adding 1 single bolt cause a key flake might have come off... That something, key or otherwise, must have come off is sheer speculation on Erik's part and that would have to be verified by someone that has climbed the route. Peter clearly has not "given his permission" at this point, and again I would very much guess the climb is exactly as he left it and is just intimidating. Again, I can empathize, but unless someone can verify that a key hold has come off the climb should stay as he found it. [and P.S. I have several .12 and .13 FA's , several of which we graded 11+ in the mid-70's and were subsequently uprated over the intervening years...] ...Ill probably be up there and give it red-point attempt this Fall if it looks safe! "If it looks safe!" being the operative words here. Climbs by and large aren't "safe" - it's your responsibility by skill and capability that makes them safe. Given you appear to have never seen a bolt you didn't like I suspect the only time things "look safe" is when a route has been grid bolted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I (and the first ascensionist) am more interested in hearing from people who have actually done the climb. I can live with it the way it is. I can stick clip the first (badly placed) bolt. Or I can rehearse the first moves and do them without the stick clip. It just struck me as a great climb that deserves a better bolting job. If you can't do the first moves confidently without the bolt or stick clip after top roping the climb then just stick clip it. Boosting confidence with a bolt instead of bettering your climbing abilities is pretty much the heart of many of the retro bolting discussions here and on other forums. IMHO, there are climbs that are bold and terrifying and even dangerous to lead, and that is part of the experience, maybe even the main attraction. There are other climbs that are just great climbs, where the danger is not the point of the climb; then having a dangerous start just keeps people off the climb. Do you assume any two people agree on which is which? What if this is "just a great climb" that happens to be "bold and terrifying" and have a "dangerous start" which is what it sounds like? This is the same discussion as ever - when did "safe climbing" suddenly become an expectation and right and why should it be? I'm just trying to find out if there is some consensus about this particular climb, whether the dangerous start is an important part of the climb or not. So far I've gotten a private email from one person who has done the climb over 20 times and agrees that a bolt would improve the climb. Again, who is to decide whether a "dangerous start" is an "important part" - you can bank on the answer to that question everytime if the person answering is flashclimber or his ilk. As far as the person that's climbed it 20 times, how about have them post here and tell us if a "key flake" has come off or if it's always been that way and in what way would a bolt "improve" the climb. As it stands now, it sounds like "improve" means "make safer", make it less risky, and make it require less commitment, and less emotional skills no matter how you slice and dice it. My understanding about adding a bolt in this situation is to check with the first ascensionist and the community, that's what I'm doing. And that's admirable and proper - but the question of the motivation simply amounting to "bringing the route down to your own level" is more than a legitimate question to be asked in any retrobolt discussion. Again, if a key hold really came off then sure, action is justified, otherwise all the talking and careful use of words still amounts to the same thing - the retrobolted downgrading of an existing route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I (and the first ascensionist) am more interested in hearing from people who have actually done the climb. I'm just trying to find out if there is some consensus about this particular climb, whether the dangerous start is an important part of the climb or not. So far I've gotten a private email from one person who has done the climb over 20 times and agrees that a bolt would improve the climb. My understanding about adding a bolt in this situation is to check with the first ascensionist and the community, that's what I'm doing. Hi Joseph: might be a little strong no? He is asking for community opinion. I have not done the route and do not know anything about it Erik. One time I ripped a 2-3' flake off of Picnic lunch wall that you really needed to hang on to clip that 1/4 bolt. It seems to me that resetting that bolt to where you can clip it, and making it a 3/8 bolt, would be adviseable. Sounds like Erik has similar concerns over another route, perhaps a similar situation, perhaps not? Good luck with your quest Erik, thanks for asking the community. Opinions are starting to rollin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Bill, I don't think so at all, check my last post. Retrobolting is the issue here and again a "key flake" coming off was pure supposition in Erik's first post about why this route felt so hard and dangerous - both flashclimber and you have grabbed on to this one piece of supposition as if it's fact when it isn't at all, even when Erik first mentioned this. It could be that Peter was just more skilled and confident at the time. If it were simply about compensating for a mising hold then the title of this post wouldn't be "Adding a bolt at Midnight Rock", it would be "Is a key hold missing from the start of Stevens Pass Motel?". Again, I sympathize and empathize with Erik's experience and have had the same more than a few times myself, but that doesn't legitimize retrobolting it unless someone can clearly show a "key" hold came off. But again, can anyone - especially whoever "climbed it 20 times" - verify whether something is missing or whether it is simply a scary start. Otherwise you're basically justifying going down to Smith and bolting every stick clip start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 One guy wants a bolt, maybe somebody else would wants two. Maybe chopping a jug or two would make it even safer and increase traffic. Where does it stop? Enjoy the top-rope. Or cowboy up. Yup, odds are good it was done in impeccable style and the challenge the route has to offer should remain intact. I definitely think retro bolting would be a step backward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I suspect the only time things "look safe" is when a route has been grid bolted. This statement always annoys the shit outta me. How do you "grid bolt" a single route? I understand how a route can be overbolted or how an entire face can be "grid bolted" but not a single "grid bolted" route. I guess I can use my imagination but I haven't ever seen one, have you? Pope, I don't need to see one of your assanine cut and paste collages, TIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 My apologies. Yes - it is not the correct use of the term, isolating it down to a single route - but you obviously get the point so what is your opinion of the issue at hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Since you asked... Mostly I don't give a shit. Secondly I haven't done the route so my opinion doesn't hold much weight. Knowing some history of the area, I would'nt guess that Peter Croft equipped the route and most likely scooped the first free ascent because the bolter failed or simply hadn't completed it. It would be interesting to know if there was any "Tom Foolery" involved such as a long fixed sling that has been removed or if a hold did in fact come off, if not, I guess I would say leave it as is, or at most replace the old hardware in it's original location. I guess I don't really understand why someone would bother if they have already TR'd it, there is a million new routes to be done in the area, if that one isn't to their liking put up a new one in whatever style they want. but mostly I just don't care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I talked to Peter Croft, the first ascensionist, by phone this morning.... Peter doesn't remember the start very well. He agrees that it could be that some key flake has come off or whatever to make the start more difficult than when he did it. I have not done this route, yet...I have looked at it from the Flame and did notice it looked thin to the start. There are lots of routes in the Leavenworth area with scary runouts...go to goat dome or givler's dome if you need examples... Furthermore, your original post implies Peter does not remember the start to this particular route... For god's fawking sake, he did the route like 20 years ago and I do believe has climbed a "Few routes" after that. So, really by asking him if he feels a flake broke or some other excuse is dumb. Likewise, the responses of people who do not lead 5.12 are very valid and saying that they are not is fuking selfish. Also, if the person you claim that has repeated the route "20x" has any validity they will post their opinion to this thread. Like TimL says: Enjoy the TR or sac it up and lead it the way it is. Don´t add a bolt to this climb to dumb it down to a lower level. Climbing will never be safe, so don´t try to pretend it is! I bold the last statement because this is as true as the sky is blue and the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Finally, if you want to do Midnight Rock a favor then fix the fucked up bolt-job on Yellow bird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyperu Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 wtf...shouldn't you be taking one for team if i wasn't sitting at this job, i'd be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSparky Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I haven't climbed the route either. Does anyone want to know my opinion? -Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) ErikN - It is awesome that you brought up this subject for people to discuss. Ii think you will get a fair reading of opinions from this topic. Although I have not climbed the route, STM, I have spent a lot of time at Midnight Rock and I have climbed the the grade on bolts and gear for many years now. My opinion is you should let the route remain as it is. If you want to climb it, figure it out the honest way, leading it ground up, or TR it. After all it is your experinece and you should figure out how you want to do it. But, please don´t change the experience for others. Although I don´t live in the area now, when I come back to visit this route is on my tick list. In the scope of things, you can´t add a bolt to every route that has a scary section. If you are climbing 5.11-5.12 on gear, you should know that by nature some of the routes are harder to protect. If you are a sollid climber at the grade, you should have the mental and physical control too get the job done. If you don´t, pick harder routes that have better potential for protection.. Just an example from about a year ago. Alex and I went up to Rattlesnake Rock and Tumwater Tower. We did some of the more popular routes and then went searching for new routes. On the road side of TT there is a vegitated route that we did not think had been climbed. We TR´d it and cleaned it off a little and found an old pin and bolt. Although the route was very nice once cleaned, it did not match up to any descriptions in the guidebook. We were getting ready to add a couple bolts but upon making a couple calls and doing a little more research we found that Peter Croft had already freed the line. To us there was no questiion of altering the route so we let it be in its existing state as a challennge to anyone that comes along. BTW - it might need a little more cleaning, but it is a nice route. Edited August 31, 2005 by TimL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Tim ...are you sure you don't mean Piton Tower? BP ...no worries, I'm doin the team proud. Job??? What you talkin 'bout Willis? This weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Are there ANY circumstances under which you guys who have voided your opposition to the addition of the proposed bolt would agree that it might be desirable? If there in fact HAD been a long sling hanging down at the time of the FA, so Peter Croft was able to clip right there where Erik N proposes a bolt, would that make any difference? If a hold had broken off, so the move done by Peter Croft to get to the bolt was considerably easier, would that make a difference? If the original first bolt was placed on aid, with the use of a hook or something to make the move that Erik found troubling, and if those who have actually climbed the route agree that the bolt is in the wrong place for free-climbing as a result, would that make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I've been on it years ago, and yes the start was heady. Last pro before the bolt was a cam in horizontals, if memory serves correctly. My feeling is that a bolt shoud NOT be placed, unless something has changed dramatically (and it sounds like it hasn't). I remember the start being scary, but much much easier than anything above, so it serves as a good filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 And contrary to what Flashclimber says, I think it IS a good idea to try to get some feed-back regarding retro-bolting. I know there are a lot of gumbies chiming in with their anti-bolt rhetoric while arm-chair climbing (you can usually tell who they are by their high-pitched whining and emotive outbursts), but please sort through the arguments and really think about this issue deeply. My suggestion: let's let some routes be as they are, as they were climbed by the first ascensionist, and if we feel uncomfortable on them, let's not instantly and reactively bring them down to our comfort level by adding bolts. Maybe we can really think about the route as it exists in its present form, and how we might be able to climb it while adapting to ITS specifics, instead of trying to adapt it to ours. I think adding a bolt would simply be serving our Instant Gratification culture, where we want our fun and we want it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 And furthermore(!), there are other climbs similar in nature that are "safer"; Frog Pond(?) at Index comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Whoa, sexy, you're on a roll. Good points, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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