The Man is trying to scare me...

[Winter]

Well fuck yeah that's a good outcome. Congrats! Now give me back the $.0003 I spent on the substitute teachers.

[mtn_mouse]

Conclusion:

final cost to taxpayers: $300 for 2 substitute teachers

 

having to wait a whole year for my annual pass to run out before i can hop on the merry-go-round again. . . priceless

 

Say Tex... I find your avatar, a mounted_mouse, offensive.

[pjc]

Say Tex... I find your avatar, a mounted_mouse, offensive.

 

But...it's just peeking through a hole in the wall!

 

EDIT: And it's a squirrel, or a mouse with a squirrel mask.

Edited May 12, 2005 by pjc

[Dru]

A squirrel is just a rat with fur on its tail.

[assmonkey]

I just read this thread start to finish for the first time. It struck me as very Kafka-esque, up to the conclusion. Glad no one had to spend time in jail.

 

This whole fee situation REALLY FUCKING PISSES ME OFF. I remember when gramps and I would drive around without regard for fees to fishing holes in the Cascades. I remember when NP entry fees were $.75 per car. I remember when the Sno-Park program started because my broke ass single mom had to scrape up change for the window sticker to take us out cross-country skiing for the day.

 

This is a profound example of how our country is falling apart. I counted something like six user fee passes I had to buy in calendar year '04 just to fucking recreate on MY PUBLIC LANDS. Jesus, all this bullshit started under Klinton and it's just getting worse under the evil facist Bush. While I can begrudingly afford to pay these user fees--because I have made it a priority for my lifestyle--it becomes a hardship for those who have to make a financial choice to purchase a pass and enjoy their public lands. User fees penalize those who can least afford them. Meanwhile, our government sells out our public lands to organizations that are intent on destroying our natural resources and paving everything for ATV access.

 

Here's something for all you assholes who support our current administration to think about: The loss of the natural resources that you enjoy so much and about which you post about your adventures on this website are being destroyed and it is your fucking fault dickhead. When they pave a wheel chair path up to the summit of Prusik Peak after clearcutting an ATV path up there, or put a fucking tram on Denali, you should stand there and look at it and be proud that you are a part of that. You can pray to your fairy-tale God and give thanks that the wild has been commecialized for your convenient access. Providence, I'm sure you'll think.

 

Right before Ivan's post about the resolution at the courthouse, I was thinking to myself, "Fuck this shit, this is it, I'm packing up the family and moving to Europe. We have finally gone over the edge as a country and a culture." I was relieved to see that there is still some sanity and humanity in the system.

 

Anyway, I'm going to go write some letters now, and you should do the same, if you care at all.

 

Fight the power. Because it is fucking bullshit and it only seeks to divorce you from your hard earned dollars.

 

Thank you for allowing pissed-off assmonkey to post.

 

- a s s m n k e y

[Winter]

Yeah, you sure won't find any trams on the mountains in Europe.

[rbw1966]

You won't find user fees like you do here.

[Dechristo]

You won't find user fees like you do here.

 

Right, they include the costs in your taxes.

[Ireneo_Funes]

So are we being taxed double with all these user fees? That's what it seems like to me.

[archenemy]

Not double. Taxes are required. Fees are for users only. As least, that's the legal division as I understand it (could use some clarification on this though--maybe lawgodess can help out here).

With taxes having been cut so much, we honestly don't have enough funds going to our forests.

Sucks, but there it is.

[Ireneo_Funes]

So if I don't use the roads and highways, I shouldn't have to pay taxes for their upkeep?

 

If I don't have kids, I shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools?

 

It seems like if our forests and wilderness areas were truly public, their maintenance would be covered through general taxation. User fees start us down a slippery slope towards privatization, I think.

[downfall]

I think the defense that we need more money going to our forests is bunk. They are just forests, they don't need money, they don't need to be managed, trails don't need upkeep, roads don't need to be maintained. If it were to be something truely wild (which it is becoming less and less of) and that is what I value in the wilderness it doesn't need any resouces or money or staff or management. Its trees, rocks, water, sun, fire, animals, life and death.

 

Once you start charging for something people start expecting something for that money. People don't view wilderness and something and especially not something they will pay for. They want their trails wide, paved, signed, and safe. And to take it a step further than what Ireneo user fees start us down a slippery slope of development.

Edited May 13, 2005 by downfall

[archenemy]

So if I don't use the roads and highways, I shouldn't have to pay taxes for their upkeep?

How do you think the goods you purchase get to the store?

If I don't have kids, I shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools?

Who do you think is going to be contributing to your social security?

It seems like if our forests and wilderness areas were truly public, their maintenance would be covered through general taxation.

Agreed. Try to get more taxes passed for this. Hell, even those of us who use the land the most bitch about paying a little extra.

User fees start us down a slippery slope towards privatization, I think.

Different issue. No one owns the forest. In truth, even we don't. Land ownership is a fairly new concept, and in our entitlement society people seem to think they deserve to have/use/do whatever they want without paying the price for that use. Fortunately, that attitude might slowly get replaced with a "stewardship" mentality.

[Dechristo]

Stewardship is a great value and practice, but it is applied to those things people believe they are dependent upon or things they believe they owe it to.

 

In this culture, people want and expect to be able to pay for surrogate stewardship.

 

... and then want to haggle the cost.

[archenemy]

Well said.

[Dechristo]

Thank you Archenemy ma'am, may I have another.

[tivoli_mike]

Yep, I still like this overview of the fee situation

 

Note: This was an image created by Paul Klenke

Edited May 16, 2005 by tivoli_mike

[PhilomathSloth]

I think the defense that we need more money going to our forests is bunk. They are just forests, they don't need money, they don't need to be managed....

 

Forests dont need to be managed???? Just leave it alone so you can enjoy it right??

 

If it were to be something truely wild (which it is becoming less and less of) and that is what I value in the wilderness it doesn't need any resouces or money or staff or management. Its trees, rocks, water, sun, fire, animals, life and death.

 

are you serious???

[fern]

And then you have the dumbasses like me who have a national parks card and paid $30 for the NW forest pass instead of $15 for the (more useful) golden eagle sticker. Live and learn.

 

drC

 

I have a golden eagle pass, but I don't know how I am supposed to display it at NWFP required locations. The NP/GE pass is a wallet card - am I just supposed to leave it on the dashboard? Anybody know?

[larrythellama]

put it on the dash board with your signature facing out. this way they can see when it was punched as well.

[Chad_A]

I have a golden eagle pass, but I don't know how I am supposed to display it at NWFP required locations. The NP/GE pass is a wallet card - am I just supposed to leave it on the dashboard? Anybody know?

 

Fern, next time you stop by a national park, ask the person at the entrance booth, if there is one, if they have a card holder; it's just a clear plastic sleeve that hangs from your rearview mirror. Not saying that they're going to have one (at Rainier last year, they were out), but they're supposed to.

[Fairweather]

And then you have the dumbasses like me who have a national parks card and paid $30 for the NW forest pass instead of $15 for the (more useful) golden eagle sticker. Live and learn.

 

drC

 

I have a golden eagle pass, but I don't know how I am supposed to display it at NWFP required locations. The NP/GE pass is a wallet card - am I just supposed to leave it on the dashboard? Anybody know?

 

I purchased my golden eagle pass and put it on my dashboard with the holographic logo facing upward as instructed. The damn card melted and curled up along the edges!! What's more, I saved the receipt and the ink has faded beyond recognition. I can almost guarentee you that I wasted $65....the local USFS yahoos certainly won't recognize the validity of this card (melted, or not) and will proceed to issue their citation.

 

In retrospect, I should have just purchased my NP pass and USFS Trailpark annual pass seperately.

[cj001f]

Right, they include the costs in your taxes.

Like the rescues they charge you for? They don't have the same concept of a park, hence they don't have the same management infrastructure.

 

Good to have the inbred =from philomath chiming in, always good to see why Oregon really is a 2nd class state. If it weren't fer tem durn envirumentalists the timber mill'd still be around?

[chris]

I purchased my golden eagle pass and put it on my dashboard with the holographic logo facing upward as instructed. The damn card melted and curled up along the edges!! What's more, I saved the receipt and the ink has faded beyond recognition. I can almost guarentee you that I wasted $65....the local USFS yahoos certainly won't recognize the validity of this card (melted, or not) and will proceed to issue their citation.

 

In retrospect, I should have just purchased my NP pass and USFS Trailpark annual pass seperately.

 

That happened to me last year too, Fairweather. I just kept using it - it flattened out next time I cooked it in the dash - and the Park and USFS rangers recognized what had happened and didn't hassle me. Don't stress...

[tomtom]

No stress