Peter_Puget Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Anyone have any thoughts one the following: The new zero cams seem to have four very thin cams. The corresponding TCU has two thin cams and one fat cam. I wonder if this has any effect on holding strength in the real world versus in a testing lab. That is: on real rock is it possible/probable that the higher rated peice may prove to be the weaker? anyway I have placed my zero a few times and each time am struck by the small size of the cams esp when I compare it to the Metolius TCUs. It would be interesting to see some real test data. PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: It would be interesting to see some real test data. PP Would you settle for some fake test data? _|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| _|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| _|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| _|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|/| _|_|_|q|_|^|_|_|_|/|_| _|_|_|_|/|_|\|_|/|_|_| _|_|_|/|_|_|_|v|_|_|_| _|_|/|_|_|k|_|_|_|_|_| x|/|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_| y As you can see from the graph above, assuming that f'c=2000 ksi and that nonlinear force vector dispersion remains constant, the relatively small 4 cams exert sufficient pressure (q) to overcome the relatively low friction coefficient (k) of the rock, and are quite solid. It's really quite fascinating, no? [ 10-09-2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Dr Flash Amazing ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLunkman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: It would be interesting to see some real test data. PP[/QB] I think you would be the crash dummy of choice, I mean with a head that big the KN rating of you fall'in would be well over normal How bout you a #2 camalot in the flair crack of outerspace, jump from libary ledge.I think most of us would be pleased with the results. If you survived we could trust cam's again, if you didn't..OH WELL Kids don't try this at home, this is only for pro crash dumys like PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Yeow Dickie you got some kinda jones for me! I'll be sure to be wearing my tight shorts to the gym tonight! PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Sadly DFA that is one of the better researched equipment reviews I have seen! Your education has paid off handsomely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_noggin Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Karma is a wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 One of my early lessons and part of my safe pro mantra in the life and death struggle against the ultimite evil of gravity is..."It is a rare piece that does not require a full length sling." I'm sure that very concept saved my ass on more than one occasion in my impetuase youth. Never forget; gravity kills. Fear it. I suspect that the proliferation of sport climbing (with the appropriate QD on a bolt), the greater cost and hassle of full length slings and the counter intuative nature of a long sling ( and therefore a longer fall, gasp, choke ) has reduced the times that modern climbers sling the pro long enough. I bet this has contributed to pro failure more often than might be accounted for; even with cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinc Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 This is a good point, TG. I am sure I am looked upon as ridiculously old school for carrying around "long" (that is, longer than the barely-there quick draw slings) runners, but I'll gladly be labeled as such if it means I don't have to worry as much about gear finding its way out of the crack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 I agree TG, another potentially dangerous thing that I see alot is a racking 'biner on a cam plus a quick draw cliped to the cam and rope. Depending on the placement it seem like it is just more stuff to be getting swcrewed up in case of a load. Better to remove the rackign 'biner. PP Dickie, ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: I agree TG, another potentially dangerous thing that I see alot is a racking 'biner on a cam plus a quick draw cliped to the cam and rope. Depending on the placement it seem like it is just more stuff to be getting swcrewed up in case of a load. Better to remove the rackign 'biner. PP Dickie, ? Major peeve cause it takes longer to re rack at each belay and your partner ends up stealing your favorite biner and the color coding of biners and cams gets screwed up [ 10-09-2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 long slings are good. Yet I personaly, as an aspiring professinal follower, find it dificult to rack them, espaecialy when cleaning from a sketchy intermidiat move 'cause the leader is 6'2" and placed higher on a stance than I can reach yes yes lame newbie question... but it's hard and I woulde love sugestions again, long slings are good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 remove pro, throw sling over neck, unclip from rope, stick arm through sling, repeat until at belay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer: long slings are good. Yet I personaly, as an aspiring professinal follower, find it dificult to rack them, espaecialy when cleaning from a sketchy intermidiat move 'cause the leader is 6'2" and placed higher on a stance than I can reach yes yes lame newbie question... but it's hard and I woulde love sugestions again, long slings are good look at "rabbit runners" ... racked over your shoulder with a biner already attached .... clip sling into cam biner, rope into sling biner, lots of options for adjusting length .... re-rack per Iain's suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 thats so simple...Why didn't I think of that??? thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobinc Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 For those of us who "grew up" with the long slings, it's hard to imagine how it could be hard to rerack them, but they can be somewhat of a pain. You just have to get into a somewhat different mindset than when you are only using draws. Think of a mixture of draws and long slings as being the best of all possible worlds (at least on routes which require a variety of fixed and removable protection). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timi Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Unless you have two cams per biner on your rack. Then the next best option is to make the slings into little draws by putting two biners on them. You take one biner and put it through the other then clip any two parts of the sling. To make it long again you drop any two. You can use it either way, short or long. But you need lots and lots of biners for that, but who doesn't need lots and lots of biners, they're sexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I had one freakish occurence once with a long sling, where when I fell the biner spun around the rope and the sling tied itself into a sort of klemheist that started to catch my fall before the belayer did. If it had cinched completely tight it would have paralyzed the belay - no taking rope in or out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I place biners on all my cams despite having to sometimes clip long runners in quite regularly. My reason is simple. If your on a 5.9 or easier where you can stand there all day and fiddle with your placement things are fine. Hell, I guess you coud even girth-hitch slings together and use only one biner per piece. However, if I'm climbing something at the upper end of my abilities I don't always have the strength to hand out on a pinkie jam and smeared feet and place gear. By having biners on the cams already you can eliminate one or sometimes two steps and in the process save lots of energy. I also found that when I put runners over my shoulder inevitably that hand was in the crack and I would have to find some way to switch hands to remove a runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by texplorer: I also found that when I put runners over my shoulder inevitably that hand was in the crack and I would have to find some way to switch hands to remove a runner. Tex, when I expect the need for a quick placement, I remove the sling from around my shoulder and just let it hang from my neck before I am locked into a hold that would be troublesome to switch around hands. If I want a really quick clip, like on a dicey layback, I clip the biner through the rope ahead of time and use a second biner cliped some place else handy. Then once the pro is set it's a simple matter to attach the sling to the pro. In the worst case senario, when you are pumped (or blown out) and fearing failure...when form and style stop becoming issues; you can pre-clip the rope and your harness loop with two 'biners on a long sling. After setting the pro you can decide to un-clip the harness loop and clip the pro quickly OR...admit defeat and pull the sling up the rope, clip the piece and hang from the pro. None of these tricks work with a QD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Muffy The Wanker Sprayer: long slings are good. Yet I personaly, as an aspiring professinal follower, find it dificult to rack them, espaecialy when cleaning from a sketchy intermidiat move 'cause the leader is 6'2" and placed higher on a stance than I can reach yes yes lame newbie question... but it's hard and I woulde love sugestions again, long slings are good Any advice that will prevent you from looking like a christmas tree when you reach the belay! In that specific situation, you could have moved up, cleaned the piece and then downclimbed the 2 moves back to the ledge, re-racked, and continued up. You did good, either way, though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 That is something for me to ponder on TG. Very efficient sounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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