What You Know Now

[pope]

Oh, and always put a "Frank nut" in the first eight feet after leaving the belay.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Never climb with Dennis Harmon.

 

Place lots of pro in sandstone.

 

Train by drinking

[slothrop]

The idea of double-checking each other was already mentioned, but there's one more point I want to add: for multipitch climbs, make sure both leader and belayer tie in and check each other at the base of the climb. Don't leave the belayer to tie in by himself after the leader finishes the pitch -- there's no double-checking that way. Duh.

[MtnHigh]

- Don't pass up the opportunity to place gear when the going is easy. It's tempting to keep moving on moderate ground and not protect it. Further up the pitch it might be difficult to place gear.

 

- Leave a few beers in the creek and bag of Tim's jalapeno chips in the truck at the trailhead. Reward is everything.

[plexus]

Train by carrying Capt. Caveman on your back while he's .

 

Chase from your camp before they steal your !

[Lambone]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Off White:

I'm also very fond of an anchor for the belayer, even at the base of sport routes, perhaps because I often outweigh my belayer, but also because having a belayer tied in shortens the leader's fall.

---

This is the one thing I have read so far that I disagree with. Personaly I think its better not to be anchored in if you are standing safely on the ground. (i.e. not on a ledge or under a roof or something weird)

 

This alows you to give a proper dynamic belay should the leader fall. Yes they may fall farther, but the impact forces will be lower, reducing the chance of a failure in the system such as a broken biner or blown piece.

 

I chalange those who think I'm full of shit to go into the climbing gym and try it both ways. First, anchor yourself in and brace yourself when the climber falls. Then go with out the anchor and jump up when the climber weights the rope. Try it from both ends of the chord, when you are the climber you will notice a huge difference. Pick a steep route.

 

Of course as with all aspects of climbing there is always a great amount of variablity depending on the circumstance. Like climbers + belayers weight, hieght of the climber (# of pieces in), type of rope...etc., etc. For most circumstances a dynamic belay is the way to go once the climber is up past the 2nd piece.

 

This is just my opinion. I also agree with JayB that it is crucial to stand close to the wall, even when Ice climbing. Nothing makes me more nervouse then to see a belayer standing 15ft out from the wall while the climber has deck potential.

 

I just have one other point to make, bear with the rambling. Of all the things I have learned through my experiences, one thing has realy stuck with me.

 

Be an active belayer. By that I meen, if you see something that looks weird while your partner is climbing, don't just sit there and hope for the best. You all know what I meen..you've all seen that cam walk, or their leg wrapped around the rope, or that long runout with deck potential...

 

I cant count several times where I said to myself, damn I should have said something then...I should have told him to put a piece in...or whatever.

 

My point is, if you are belaying and you don't feel comfortable whith what the leader is doing, it's your responsibility to yell up to them and get their shit together. That is what a partnership and teamwork is all about. The climber may be totaly oblivious to what you can see from below, never make assumptions, and never take a passive stance when you feel uncomfortable about the situation.

 

That is what a few close calls have taught me. I'm sure you get my point. I'll shut up now. Thanks

[mattp]

Not the dynamic belay all over again. Maybe its good for sport climbing, but for any rock less than vertical, or with less than bomber cams or nuts for pro, I sure hope you don't belay me that way.

 

[ 10-03-2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: mattp ]

[Lambone]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattp:

Not the dynamic belay all over again. Maybe its good for sport climbing, but for any rock less than vertical, or with less than bomber cams or nuts for pro, I sure hope you don't belay me that way.

---

yeah it's a tierd debate...

 

But I'll still argue with you. When your gear is "less than bomber" is when it is most critical to have a dynamic belay. Otherwise you put more force on the piece and increase the chances of pulling it.

 

You know howdynamic ropes work right? Well it's pretty much the same thing ecept the belayer is included as part of the dynamic the system.

 

This is one reason many solo aid climbers on hard routes will use their haulbag as a counterweight to be loaded before the anchor, or a munter hitch, or screamer...etc. Same reason why it is sometimes beter to use a hip belay in the mountains if the anchor is questionable. Same reason why ice climbvers use skinny ropes. All in the name of bringin the forces down.

 

The only time I will belay more staticly for the leader is if they run the risk of hitting something, or if alot of the rope is out.

 

[ 10-04-2002, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[mattp]

I understand your point and I'll give you slack if you want it. I might even try "the hop." But I'm generally more worried about movement (either of my fragile body or of the pieces) more than absolute forces. When I'm on the sharp end, I'd generally rather have you hold the rope tight.

 

[ 10-04-2002, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: mattp ]

[Lambone]

werd

 

You say "give em slack." Ussualy this is only needed on steep routes to mitigate a pendulum into the wall. I only give extra slack if they will only end up dangeling in space. But "the hop" does reduece the forces on the piece by alot. I wish I had statistics that showed how much. That would be a cool test.

 

If you were belaying me you probably wouldn't have to worry about it, I am too scared to fall. I either down climb or aid the rest Unfortunately that has limited my comfort level to about hard 5.10 since I was 16. It's hard to break into the bigger numbers if your afraid to whip on gear.

 

[ 10-04-2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Lambone ]

[salbrecher]

quote:

---

Originally posted by plexus:

• Always have a few beers waiting at the truck after tagging the summit and getting down safely. Never celebrate too much on top. It's getting down that'll probably kill you.

---

Or driving home after your "celebrating"

[JayB]

How about some more wisdom from the D-Town regulars.

 

E.g. "Should you find yourself a long way out from your last pro while 12 ptiches up on a blank slab and you notice that the minor bleeding on your hands from the endless thickets of devils club you plowed through on the ascent is impairing your grip...

[allison]

That is what is known as D4, and you should ignore it except insofar as to mitigate the bleeding....

[Lambone]

Slabs...ugh...you can take all that prior rambling and toss it out the window when it comes to slabs. The friction of your skin grinding across the rock is enough to slow you down so much that you barley need a belay device

 

BTW- is that Les Claypool in your sign photo?

[Cpt.Caveman]

Ahhhhhh...

 

The human eraser

[Off_White]

The "dynamic belay" debate has been around a long time. I remember when it was over whether a sticht plate put too much absolute force on the system, and you were far better off using a hip belay that allowed for more "slip" in the belay. Everybody's got to make up their own mind, but I'm tying in. If you're worried about the force on a given piece, use a screamer.

[pope]

Most of the time, when belaying a leader, your belay will be dynamic which ever way you choose to rig it. If you belay off your harness directly, you will almost always be lifted before the belay anchor ever gets loaded. If you belay off your harness but direct the rope through the belay anchors, you will be pulled in and/or up. If you belay directly off a typical fixed belay, the anchor won't take any force until the 'biners and slings are pulled up (maybe a couple of feet). By that time, you've already absorbed some of the energy with your arms.

 

When the leader steps off the ledge, in those first few feet before he gets in gear, there is extreme danger that high impact forces would be applied directly to the belay anchor since very little rope is in the system to absorb energy. If that belay fails you're both dead. In this case it is better to try to absorb some of the fall with your leg/butt muscles (i.e., a standing or sitting belay) even if you get jerked off your stance. This is why I WILL NOT BELAY OFF THE ANCHOR OR EVEN DIRECT THE ROPE THROUGH THE BELAY until the leader has placed a good piece (a "frank nut").

[Mr._Natural]

What about the directional piece thing? In other words make sure your anchor consists of a few pieces oriented to resist a downward pull (for the second) and at least one piece oriented to resist an upward pull (for the leader) If the anchor consists of at least a bolt or a solid pin then nevermind because these types of pro are muti directional. A cam can swivel but should not really be considered multidirectional. Nuts are not even close. Sorry for the remedial shit for most of yall but the story about Fowler on the diagonal scared the shit out of me and I would hate for anyone to be in this situaltion EVER.

 

[ 10-04-2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Natural ]

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lambone:

My point is, if you are belaying and you don't feel comfortable whith what the leader is doing, it's your responsibility to yell up to them and get their shit together.

---

I agree it's usually good to inform your leader of some danger of which he/she may be unaware, but haven't you been in that spot where you think "Oh crap" but there's not much the leader CAN do? Like leader is crapping himself at the crux and suddenly his last piece slides on down the rope?

 

What do you do then? It seems like letting them know the piece pulled may be important, but at the same time he probably won't be able to focus any better than he is, and letting him know that he's now in serious-fall zone might really paralyze him.

 

Any times like this when you've felt it's better to just be quiet and maybe just wait to tell your partner about the danger a bit later?

[Lambone]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lambone:

My point is, if you are belaying and you don't feel comfortable whith what the leader is doing, it's your responsibility to yell up to them and get their shit together.

---

I agree it's usually good to inform your leader of some danger of which he/she may be unaware, but haven't you been in that spot where you think "Oh crap" but there's not much the leader CAN do? Like leader is crapping himself at the crux and suddenly his last piece slides on down the rope?

 

What do you do

then

? It seems like letting them know the piece pulled may be important, but at the same time he probably won't be able to focus any better than he is, and letting him know that he's now in serious-fall zone might really paralyze him.

 

Any times like this when you've felt it's better to just be quiet and maybe just wait to tell your partner about the danger a bit later?

---

Yes, this is true. It'[s a fine line between helping and making it worse.

 

Let me give you an example of one of my bigger fuck ups. I convinced my bro to lead up the second pitch of a popular 5.8 classic in Bozeman. He accepted, took the rack and headed out on the sharp end. He was new to leading, but a go-getter and I thought he'd cuise it. We'll he did cruise, climbing really fast and neglecting to put a piece in above the belay. Then he started to sketch. I thought to tell him to get something in quik, but decided to let him work through it on his own. He fell, flipped backwards and upside down, and took a 30ft factor 2 fall onto my harness. He almost went head first into a ledge with no helmet, and his life was spared by a matter of inches, luck and the will of a higher being.

 

Several thngs were done wrong here. He should have had a helmet, he should have put in a piece just off the belay, or I should have clipped the line into the anchor, and he should have put a piece in before the crux. I blame myself for these mistakes, and attribute them to my passiveness as a belayer. He was less experienced, and I should have spoken up and instructed him to do certain things, especialy since I put him on point in the first place.

 

But I agree, sometimes it's best to shut up and let them climb.

[glacier_dup1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Ahhhhhh...

 

The human eraser

---

In a motorcycle crash, we refer to it as the Human Crayon....

 

Oh, and one of my climbing partners was explicitly instructed not to use the word, 'Oops.'

 

Seriously...

 

Practice placing unfamiliar gear while on the ground, not on lead.

 

Remember that the rope is part of the anchor, so as to save slings on multi-pitch - the clove hitch is your friend.

 

Use commands that are either standardized, or can be well-understood by your partner and/or others. 'Safe', 'Take', and 'Slack' sound alot alike in the wind. And when in a busy area, use your partner's name with commands, so as to not accidentally give commands to someone else's partner.

[proper]

For people just starting out, it's really important that you check the anchor your leader has set up. Both single pitch top roping and multipitch stuff. Doesn't matter how much more experience the leader has, ALWAYS check the anchor. Understand why it is set up the way it is and ask questions if you don't understand or don't like it.

 

And for leaders out there, make sure your partner checks your anchor.

[timi]

daisy chains...

I guess that one of the great trix that I've learned is to use a daisy chain attached to your harness with two locking biners to anchor off. That way you're attached to two separate parts of your anchor if it fails. Not something I read in a book but just something some one tought me. I find that the more people you climb with the more trix you learn.

[Geek_the_Greek]

While sketching out (maybe because you're really pumped) and then falling can be totally scary (especially if you're scared because you know the fall is long, or whatever), I think the most dangerous falls are the ones you don't expect at all. You're cruising along, and then out of nowhere you slip. Maybe your foot jam peels out from nowhere, or that jug you're hauling up on suddenly breaks off. You have no time to prepare, no time to get your legs away from the rope or jump away from the wall, no time to avoid the ledge a ways below or grab for a draw.

 

In my first year of leading I was on Jabberwocky, 5.10a at Squamish. I had trouble with the cruxy start, but then got up a bit, placed a nut, got up further, placed another nut, and was past the crux and started to feel good about it. As I was standing up on a toe jam, it just slipped out. I was right above my last nut, so I wasn't too worried, but didn't have time to adjust. Then, all at the same time, I felt something click, a quick burn on the back of my leg, and was suddenly hurtling towards the ground headfirst. The rope stretched out, my belayer screamed "holy shit!" and my (unhelmeted) head bobbed within 4 feet of the rocky ledge.

 

What happened was that my top nut pulled out, and as that happened and I fell downwards, my calf was suddenly in front of the rope below me. I got flipped upside down and got within 4 feet of likely death. My bottom (and only remaining) nut held.

 

I learnt (also from other experiences) that if you know you're going to fall, it might be scary as hell, but it's a lot better than falling without knowing it's coming. Put in more gear, put in good gear, because you could slip out of nowhere, and it might not be at the crux. Another time the crack I was on had a wasp's nest in it, and right at the crux I got stung 4 times. I cursed up and down a blue streak, but managed not to fall off....Now I always wonder "what if I got stung by bees all of a sudden here?" I also got a helmet which I climb with religiously.

[DavidW]

I lived in Alaska fro 10 years and climbed a fair bit of ice...... both alpine and waterfall. I've taken one leader fall on ice.....15' above a screw I thought was totally bomber. I placed a screamer on it anyway. The Screamer was totally extended and the screw bent 45-degrees but held me. I think any normal-sized human leading ice without using screamers is absolutely out of their minds and playing head-in-the-sand games..... even so, none.... read again none of my friends went out and bought any even when shown the bent screw.... go figure!