scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 your right, your position may be more acceptable then some, but it still amounts to YOUR position, which isn't any more or less valid than the catholic one, or more less valid than requiring a heartbeat, or a brainsteam, or the ability to breathe independantly. So i just don't see if yours (or any other position) is no more or less valid, how can you justify enforcing it on others? Just because you think your right? Just because the Pope says so? If theres no clear (i.e. everyone can agree on it, or damn near everyone. Being clear to you or I isn't sufficient)right or wrong, then it's a personal or familial decision, not governmental. well, my 2cents... I think were approaching dead horse country... though it's interesting that it's only the two of us left.... I choose to give the fetus the benefeit of the doubt; considering it is its life on the line. If there is any doubt why not air on the side of caution; to save lives rather than take them? Quote
selkirk Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 your right, your position may be more acceptable then some, but it still amounts to YOUR position, which isn't any more or less valid than the catholic one, or more less valid than requiring a heartbeat, or a brainsteam, or the ability to breathe independantly. So i just don't see if yours (or any other position) is no more or less valid, how can you justify enforcing it on others? Just because you think your right? Just because the Pope says so? If theres no clear (i.e. everyone can agree on it, or damn near everyone. Being clear to you or I isn't sufficient)right or wrong, then it's a personal or familial decision, not governmental. well, my 2cents... I think were approaching dead horse country... though it's interesting that it's only the two of us left.... I choose to give the fetus the benefeit of the doubt; considering it is its life on the line. If there is any doubt why not air on the side of caution; to save lives rather than take them? In that case again, conceptions seems like a better point doesn't it? It's just that your definition, isn't necessarily better or worse than mine, or better or worse than popes. I think damn near everyone can agree that late term abortion is unnecessary (possible exception being when the mothers life is in danger.) It's the cuttoff date that's sticky, I would say that implantation is too early. I would also say 60 days might be a little late (withough extenuating circumstances; danger to the mother, limited access to healthcare due to abuse or incest, etc). But I would much rather see us err on the side of personal responsbility and personal freedom (isn't that what this country was founded on?) At the same time, we need to be educating people. I don't think it should be easy to get an abortion and pretty much all other options should be investigated and considered beforehand. I feel the same way about assited suicide for the elderly. Quote
Jim Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 your right, your position may be more acceptable then some, but it still amounts to YOUR position, which isn't any more or less valid than the catholic one, or more less valid than requiring a heartbeat, or a brainsteam, or the ability to breathe independantly. So i just don't see if yours (or any other position) is no more or less valid, how can you justify enforcing it on others? Just because you think your right? Just because the Pope says so? If theres no clear (i.e. everyone can agree on it, or damn near everyone. Being clear to you or I isn't sufficient)right or wrong, then it's a personal or familial decision, not governmental. well, my 2cents... I think were approaching dead horse country... though it's interesting that it's only the two of us left.... I choose to give the fetus the benefeit of the doubt; considering it is its life on the line. If there is any doubt why not air on the side of caution; to save lives rather than take them? I think the point is that you have doubts, others do not. Therefore just let everyone make their own choice and leave the government out of it. Quote
BillA Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 But I would much rather see us err on the side of personal responsbility and personal freedom (isn't that what this country was founded on?) This is an argument I don't quite understand and it's one of the things that miffs me most about conservatives. They're all for personal responsibility and freedom until someone does something they don't like, like gets an abortion or gets gay married. Then they are all for government regulation. Seems a wee bit hypocritical guys. Quote
selkirk Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Very good question, Conservatives? How do you rectify the two. The desire for less government regulation and more personal freedoms, less taxation and basically less government "meddling" while being for regulating abortion, union of gay couples, increased surveillance of the populace through the patriot act, laws agains fornication and sodomy (maybe not an issue here, but a girl was successfully prosecuted for fornication in Idaho about 6 years ago), should I keep going? Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 But I would much rather see us err on the side of personal responsbility and personal freedom (isn't that what this country was founded on?) This is an argument I don't quite understand and it's one of the things that miffs me most about conservatives. They're all for personal responsibility and freedom until someone does something they don't like, like gets an abortion or gets gay married. Then they are all for government regulation. Seems a wee bit hypocritical guys. Speaking of hypocritical, the religious right wants to establish a "culture of life," but they are strongly for the death penalty. These are inconsistent views in my mind. Though I am vehemently pro-choice, I will respect the opinion of a Catholic who is pro-life and anti-death penalty, because those views are consistent. Quote
JayB Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I think these are only inconsistent if one confuses physical equivalence with moral equivalence. I am against the state imposing restrictions on abortion, and am against the death penalty in practice because it is too flawed and expensive. However, I am at a loss as to how someone could claim that the two acts are morally equivalent with one another. Quote
scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Very good question, Conservatives? How do you rectify the two. The desire for less government regulation and more personal freedoms, less taxation and basically less government "meddling" while being for regulating abortion, union of gay couples, increased surveillance of the populace through the patriot act, laws agains fornication and sodomy (maybe not an issue here, but a girl was successfully prosecuted for fornication in Idaho about 6 years ago), should I keep going? I believe that by killing someone, their rights are somewhat infringed. I think that a mother having to carry for 9 months is a lot let problematic than being murdered. Quote
cj001f Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 I believe that by killing someone, their rights are somewhat infringed. And we've established that the definition of someone if problematic and subject to personal opinion without much regard to scientific fact. Quote
klenke Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Interesting that there's a Mormon enclave in/near Moses Lake. Maybe the word "Moses" drew them there. Quote
EWolfe Posted November 5, 2004 Author Posted November 5, 2004 so much for seperation of church and state. Quote
HappyCamper Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 When the abortion debate was reaching a real fervent pitch in the early 90's I had a professor who was known for conservative views. He had asked a question of a classmate and they had mentioned abortion as an aside to their answer. I think overall debate exhaustion made us collectively groan as most of us on either side of the issue did not want to make it a classroom topic. He response to the aside was as follows: "Abortion? I'll tell you my position on abortion. In ancient Rome the patriarch had the right to kill any of his children before the age of 12. That's my postion on abortion." He was a smart enough guy that I am pretty sure there was a point to what he said, but it wasn't going to be on the final so I skipped thinking about it. Quote
EWolfe Posted November 5, 2004 Author Posted November 5, 2004 ...and my gf insists we're in "the new Rome" now. Lotta similarities, for sure except the baby-killing thing, of course Quote
selkirk Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 (edited) Baby killing has a long and happy history... just look at the Inuit, as msmory serves it used to be standard practice to sacrifice children for the good of the tribe. There simply wasn't enough food or resources for a larger tribe, so procreation was very strictly controlled.... seems barbaric to us, but it was necesity to them..... Edited November 5, 2004 by selkirk Quote
Alpinfox Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Roasted baby is an Canadian delicacy. Those fuckin' savages! We should take over that goddamned country for it's own good! Quote
marylou Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 Roasted baby is an Canadian delicacy. Those fuckin' savages! We should take over that goddamned country for it's own good! I'm gunna go up to Vancouver tonight for the weekend. Should I start the invasion while I'm up there? Quote
Dru Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 It might be hard to find a Canadian to marry in Vancouver. I suggest visiting Yellowknife or Nunavut. Quote
tomtom Posted November 5, 2004 Posted November 5, 2004 It might be hard to find a Canadian to marry in Vancouver. I suggest visiting Yellowknife or Nunavut. Try here. Quote
snoboy Posted November 6, 2004 Posted November 6, 2004 haha this reads as: | 4 more years of... | Spray | tomtom | in the recent posts. Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted November 6, 2004 Posted November 6, 2004 Roasted baby is an Irish delicacy. Quite a modest delicacy, indeed! Quote
tomtom Posted November 6, 2004 Posted November 6, 2004 Roasted baby is an Irish delicacy. Quite a modest delicacy, indeed! DAD: There are Jews in the world. There are Buddhists. There are Hindus and Mormons, and then There are those that follow Mohammed, but I've never been one of them. I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born, And the one thing they say about Catholics is: They'll take you as soon as you're warm. You don't have to be a six-footer. You don't have to have a great brain. You don't have to have any clothes on. You're A Catholic the moment Dad came, Because Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. CHILDREN: Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. GIRL: Let the heathen spill theirs On the dusty ground. God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found. CHILDREN: Every sperm is wanted. Every sperm is good. Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood. MUM: Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Spill theirs just anywhere, But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care. MEN: Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. WOMEN: If a sperm is wasted,... CHILDREN: ...God get quite irate. PRIEST: Every sperm is sacred. BRIDE and GROOM: Every sperm is good. NANNIES: Every sperm is needed... CARDINALS: ...In your neighbourhood! CHILDREN: Every sperm is useful. Every sperm is fine. FUNERAL CORTEGE: God needs everybody's. MOURNER #1: Mine! MOURNER #2: And mine! CORPSE: And mine! NUN: Let the Pagan spill theirs O'er mountain, hill, and plain. HOLY STATUES: God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain. EVERYONE: Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is good. Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood. Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite iraaaaaate! Quote
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