Bug Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 What I was saying is that I am pissed regardless of what they used to drill. But WHAT are you pissed about? Doesn't seem that anyone really knows the answers to the questions above. How can you get on your high horse without knowing the facts? I think it is sad that you have to ask. It's the bolts stupid! They are right next to a crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 This is all pretty funny. Alpinfox might have seen the bolts, but he's not sure, and everyone else is just spraying about something they don't have any facts on. It would be refreshing to see someone post who has actual information...not that that is likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Well, the people who know where it is wont say where it is. They also seem to have a personal interest in the climb. This to me seems mighty suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I think it is sad that you have to ask. It's the bolts stupid! They are right next to a crack. According to CptCaveman (on Ascensionist.com), they are near a seam that can be aided with bashies and copperheads. That's quite different than adjacent to a fine crack, which would not be acceptable. Ergo, I think more information is needed. No doubt, we will be revisiting this topic when more is known come summer, but until then I think its sad to be getting your knickers in a twist over a speculative issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 What I was saying is that I am pissed regardless of what they used to drill. But WHAT are you pissed about? Doesn't seem that anyone really knows the answers to the questions above. How can you get on your high horse without knowing the facts? I think it is sad that you have to ask. It's the bolts stupid! They are right next to a crack. Is it? As AlpineK points out, no one in this thread knows the facts - MAYBE it's the bolts Alpinfox saw. Why not try to solicate information in an attempt to confirm what/where was done. Who knows what would come up if people started asking for info or contacts without pre- judging. When did the route go up? Where is it? Who put it up? Are there bolts? Are they next to natural pro? How were they put in? All legitimate questions by climbers with a right (used in the ethical, not legal sense) to know. How about writing to BD in a civil tone, solisiting info about climb put up in a sensitive area that we are concerned about? imho, uninformed rant is for amusement in SPRAY. I'll start it off : Does any know anyone who was in the area at the time and has real information or contacts who might? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 two rap anchors (two 3/8" bolts + hangers + rings) about 35m apart and two single 3/8'" bolts which were right next to an easily protectable crack (0.5 camalot size) This is the only first hand info in the whole thread. It seems like some other people, who have not been there, are trying to discredit this information based on their own opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I talked to Ray (Capt Caveman) about this briefly when he mentioned something about it this summer, as he apparently was in the area while the bolts were being placed. From what I understand, the bolts were placed by hand, on rappel. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Well NOLSE knows what the deal is, but he is tight lipped about it. Word on the street is that he or one of his buddies did it and that is why he is so vehemenently defending it. If he would just say what the deal with the route is, it would clear a lot of things up but it seems he is unwilling to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Word on the street is that he or one of his buddies did it and that is why he is so vehemenently defending it. Little scotty: if you play with shit you can plan on smelling like it. I'm gonna guess the street you heard this on is ladiesbancampsewingcircle.com I treat people the way they treat me... Maybe that's why I won't tell you. On the other hand many people who are cordial and respectful of fellow users on this site have pmed me for the details and I have told them where it is. I did not put the route up. To date I have only replaced a number of alpine bolts in the same manner the FA party did only after recieving there permission to replace them. And if Cavey is the only source on this one then chances are its bullshit. Yet again... can you answer these questions: Have you seen the route? Done the route? Have a name or rating? Know who put it up? Know when they did it? Examined the "seam" in question? How many bolts are there? How far apart are they? How steep is the route? Are there any drilling stances? If not you are just another seditionary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 J.P. it is only reasonable that something so controversial as this have its contents aired to the community. This has far reaching implications far beyond one climb or a "couple bolts." This sets a dangerous precedence that many in the community wish never becomes established. Your reluctance to divulge information vital to the communties understanding of this route because of personal reasons or to defend this route from the consensus of the community is irresponsible and childish. There are many involved in this scenario which are far more upset about this than I and unless the facts are aired, this route will be history and the bolts that adorned it will be adorning the living room of the aforementioned individuals. I hope you understand that you being open and honest about this route will not have any effect on its fate either way. The truth will come out one way or another. The thing you are risking right now J.P. is a further polarization of two sides that are already at odds. If you truly have the best interests of the community and the sport at heart you will make the info you have public so that this controversy may run its course before tempers and fellins of ill-will become any more apart of this than they already are. -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Wow, Scott actually said something reasonable. It sure would be nice to know what exactly is the situation with this route. Anyone who's going to put up a route on public land ought to own up to their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 What is the consensus? When and where was it reached? You will not find a post anywhere by me that specifically states whether I support or condemn this route (kinda like you won’t find a post by me dissing people who can't climb 5.10 as you also claim). At this point the only action I have endorsed is to answer the questions I keep posting before rushing to action as you seemed so bent on doing. If you can find the answers to those questions I will be happy to provide you a topo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 NOLSe the Betamaster, why are you holding back information? You are telling us to go climb the route before we make judgments, but you won't graciously provide us a topo unless... uh... we know everything about the route already. Throw us a bone. Who put up the route, anyway? Why can't they talk about their actions affecting a public resource? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 NOLSE, I don't need a topo to find it. I am not looking for an easy way to fin this route so that I can chop it. I am merely asking if you have the information about the climb that you are implying refutes the statements made by other posters. If you do, I would think it wise to get it out now. How about this. You don't give any information about the location of the climb or even the aspect if that so suits you. What I feel we deserve and need is an honest description of the route, the methods used in its creation and if in your opinion this route is in-keeping with the currently held ethic in the area. If this is indeed much-ado abotu nothing, then we can lay the matter to rest. If the communities' concerns are indeed valid, the necessary steps will be taken to remedy the situation. This need not be a personal vendetta to somehow screw me out of the information. I suggest we put personal matters aside and try and help the community work out solutions to the problems that divide our community. This is bigger than one route or one ego. It encompasses future access and the possibility for future solidarity in this community. -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 J.P. it is only reasonable that something so controversial as this have its contents aired to the community. This has far reaching implications far beyond one climb or a "couple bolts." This sets a dangerous precedence that many in the community wish never becomes established. Your reluctance to divulge information vital to the communties understanding of this route because of personal reasons or to defend this route from the consensus of the community is irresponsible and childish. There are many involved in this scenario which are far more upset about this than I and unless the facts are aired, this route will be history and the bolts that adorned it will be adorning the living room of the aforementioned individuals. I hope you understand that you being open and honest about this route will not have any effect on its fate either way. The truth will come out one way or another. The thing you are risking right now J.P. is a further polarization of two sides that are already at odds. If you truly have the best interests of the community and the sport at heart you will make the info you have public so that this controversy may run its course before tempers and fellins of ill-will become any more apart of this than they already are. -Scott Reasonable? First of all, the assumption that somehow the posters on this thread (or this board!) are the "climbing community" is a bit laughable and self-aggrandizing at best. Most of who I climb with never visit this site, nor do most of the others that I run into!?!? Secondly Scott, I find it a bit funny how you're acting like a kid who can't quite reach the freezer for a popsicle and throws a tantrum (give him a few more clues for fun's sake Nolse!). And thirdly, relax people. I'm sure all the info will be available in due time (your world won't end in the mean-time). I'm sure at that time, a reasoned conclusion and consensus will be reached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Based on the seditionary comments to date I doubt any further information I have will change the so called consensus stance... I would be willing to bet that it is their opinion that bolts (no matter how they were placed) are wrong... perhaps scott and greg w can answer this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 It’s innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent... present the evidence that it was rap bolted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Seems like there are 3 camps here. I summarize. 1) Bolts are a defilement of Prussik Peak. There should be no bolts on Prussik (except maybe the rap anchors for the standard route). Placing bolts on this trad alpine crag filled with crack systems is just wrong. 2) There may or may not be something wrong with these bolts. For instance, if they were placed with a power drill, or they are next to protectable cracks. But if that is not the case, and these bolts are out on an otherwise unprotectable face or arete, then there is no problem. 3) Bolts are good. Bolts on Prussik are fine even if they were rap bolted with a gas power drill right into a crack filled with helpless baby snaffles. I guess there are some nuances... like if you think rap bolting is wrong and that if the bolts are placed on rappel, even if by hand and not near any cracks, then they have to go...call this position #1.5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Oh and 4) Scott and NOLSe get a room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 You are hyperbolizing the stance that I take and making an assumption about an entirely different poster which may or not be true. I believe that bolts do indeed have their place but if heinous transgression of established ethics are breached, their welcome may be repealed. Trying to paint me as more polarized than I truly am will do nothing to credit your cause. If you really want your side to be validated and heard, you must not vaguely imply that the provided information is false but rather prove it false with first-hand knowledge or second hand knowledge from the first ascentionist. If you want to make any case for this route you must divulge the information crucial for determining the style of the route and its creation. Many are surprised that after all this fan-fare the first ascentionists have not come out of the wood work to defend their piece. You are their sole defender and are not even willing to describe the route in question. Another question that can?t helped be begged is this: Why create a route with so much conflict surrounding it that no-one can actually climb it? -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 [quote First of all, the assumption that somehow the posters on this thread (or this board!) are the "climbing community" is a bit laughable and self-aggrandizing at best. Most of who I climb with never visit this site, nor do most of the others that I run into!?!? So true so true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 You are hyperbolizing the stance that I take and making an assumption about an entirely different poster which may or not be true. I believe that bolts do indeed have their place but if heinous transgression of established ethics are breached, their welcome may be repealed. Trying to paint me as more polarized than I truly am will do nothing to credit your cause. If you really want your side to be validated and heard, you must not vaguely imply that the provided information is false but rather prove it false with first-hand knowledge or second hand knowledge from the first ascentionist. If you want to make any case for this route you must divulge the information crucial for determining the style of the route and its creation. Many are surprised that after all this fan-fare the first ascentionists have not come out of the wood work to defend their piece. You are their sole defender and are not even willing to describe the route in question. Another question that can?t helped be begged is this: Why create a route with so much conflict surrounding it that no-one can actually climb it? -Scott Scott...you are assuming that the FA'ers are reading this site...that is a BIG assumption...and well, you know what they say about the word "ass U me"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I am assuming that since NOLSE is 10 times more knowledgable about this route and about the situation, he has some vested interest in it and likely knows the party involved. I am assuming that he is passing on word of the conflict brewing here and elsewhere. If this is not so NOLSE feel free to correct but I would think that if you know them as much as you imply you do that you would pass this info on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Nope. Don't know them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Ok I have been persuaded to admit to the rap bolting on PP. The bolt locations in some of these threads do not seem to be the route we climbed but anyway.... I wussed and checked it out on rappel. But after seeing the edges, which would have provided perfect A1 hooks, I figured why not make it a headpoint. (I may be misusing the term “headpoint” because we did not TR the pitch.) So out came the flintstone rig and in went the bolts. The route moves up across a face and up a rounded arete passing 2 bolts and a rivet that is almost invisible. This was placed on lead (hence the rivit) because as it turns out I didn’t have the head for the point - 11d 20+’ feet out. The entire pitch is 12b/c. I have no idea about the bolted rap route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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