Poll: Would you rat on a Wilderness Power Driller?

[willstrickland]

The USFS did not take on the "installation" issue because outside the Sawtooth Wilderness, they have reverted to a policy that once again allows the use of fixed anchors.

 

The AAC has some good info. Here's a good link http://www.americanalpineclub.org/docs/About_History_2004.pdf

[Fairweather]

Actually I just read the wilderness act again and I can't find anywhere in the text that specifically prohibits motorized activities not related to transport, though there is explicit prohibition of "fixed installations".

 

First it's motorized, then its mechanized (ie: mountain bikes). So which definition suits your beliefs this week? How about the motor drive in my camera? The mechanized skins and bindings on my skis? The wheelbarrow being used by the trail maintenance crew? My handheld GPS? My wristwatch? The kite being flown by a father and child?....

 

Wilderness Nazis! I spit on you.

 

Repeal the Wilderness Act!.

[Lambone]

hey uh, Fairweather....I'm not sure if you are serious or what...but this is what the FS guy has to say about your camera:

 

That prohibition applies to virtually everything from mountain bikes and wheeled-carts (mechanized items) to vehicles and motorized drills, Cimino said. Exceptions include cameras, flashlights, cell phones and other "mechanized" equipment that generally cannot be used to harm the environment, he noted.

 

There is another issue at hand besides breaking the law or disrespecting the Wilderness...

 

How about honoring all the hardmen/women out there who have put in bolts with a hand drill over the decades. Pretty damn disrespectful to them too..

 

Although I guess I'm just preaching to the choir since most everyone seems to be agains power drilling in wilderness areas here.

[Dru]

Those who are for it are too busy out drilling to post their opinions.

[Fairweather]

hey uh, Fairweather....I'm not sure if you are serious or what...but this is what the FS guy has to say about your camera:

 

That prohibition applies to virtually everything from mountain bikes and wheeled-carts (mechanized items) to vehicles and motorized drills, Cimino said. Exceptions include cameras, flashlights, cell phones and other "mechanized" equipment that generally cannot be used to harm the environment, he noted.

 

One FS drone's definition. What's your point? The Wilderness extremists...and there are many of these "advocates" who possess law degrees (unfortunately), can twist both meaning and intent of The Act at will! All that is required to impose their view of wilderness ethics is a judge with a willing ear.

 

...And yes, I am serious.

[gotterdamerung]

Would you call the forest service if Gotterdamerung rides his bike to Dutch Miller Gap?

 

They're afraid of me. They know I be packing heat. FS don't have a SWAT team so no worries here. Next poach will be Sahale Arm.

[Ducknut]

The USFS did not take on the "installation" issue because outside the Sawtooth Wilderness, they have reverted to a policy that once again allows the use of fixed anchors.

 

The AAC has some good info. Here's a good link http://www.americanalpineclub.org/docs/About_History_2004.pdf

 

I am glad to see that there has always been great disagreement on this issue and cc.com hasn't solved it either. I find it interesting that someone asked David Brower his opinion before his death, and he gave obtuse, poltical answer. Thanks for posting that link Will.

 

Its clear that there won't soon be a policy decision aside from the current uneasy truce policy. Just hope that we don't see endless bolt ladders up every >5.1 pitch on every wilderness crag.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Comments like you are gay or fucking what - well call it what you like. I have done so before but:

 

The truth is some here will do anything within their means to quiet people who speak out against wildnerness drilling. Anything from removing posts, declaring them spray, falsely accuse the people of threatening, falsely accuse them of making insults and even suggest acquaintances are making comments that one is irrational or any of that above for instance.

 

I have been called on the carpet in or for all of the above situations today although they are all false accusations.

 

This isn't enough to keep me quiet. Some suggest putting responses in spray so nobody reads them I suppose. But these are real issues being swept under the carpet by folks. I still remain rational for now (but others might prefer to ban me so I can use 10 avatars). Will that really make a difference? Maybe not...

 

Sounds like a "community forum" where you can debate without being objectionable

 

This is access and reputation is important about this sort of item in certain parts of the woods.

 

Would I rat on a wilderness power driller - Probably if I didn't like em. More than likely I would chop the bolts though...

[lancegranite]

Blah blah blahblahblahblahblah.

 

 

 

 

For the record: I am a bolter and I will let my routes grow grass instead of telling any of you clowns about a single move.

 

 

 

Forget it.

[rat]

mastectomize the mechanized man-tits.

[iain]

First it's motorized, then its mechanized (ie: mountain bikes). So which definition suits your beliefs this week? How about the motor drive in my camera? The mechanized skins and bindings on my skis? The wheelbarrow being used by the trail maintenance crew? My handheld GPS? My wristwatch? The kite being flown by a father and child?....

 

Wilderness Nazis! I spit on you.

 

Repeal the Wilderness Act!.

 

If you could only quell the knee-jerk reaction just once and actually read the discussion you would see that I'm saying the act doesn't actually restrict these things. However I was proved wrong later by someone quoting the act.

[MervGriffin]

There are two issues, 1. the prohibition of motorized equipment in wilderness; and 2. placing bolts or other permanent objects in the wilderness.

 

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

 

How were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road.

[lancegranite]

So is Static Point.

Should we chop those routes as well?

 

Where is my crowbar at?.....

[AlpineK]

There are two issues, 1. the prohibition of motorized equipment in wilderness; and 2. placing bolts or other permanent objects in the wilderness.

 

 

 

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access?

 

How were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road.

 

You're all into the letter of the law when it comes to power drills violating the rules of wilderness yet you're willing to stretch the wilderness boundary 2 miles past it's legal limit when it suits you.

[Mark_Husbands]

"You're all into the letter of the law when it comes to power drills violating the rules of wilderness yet you're willing to stretch the wilderness boundary 2 miles past it's legal limit when it suits you."

 

Who might you be talking about? It appears only Merv has taken issue with sport type development outside Wilderness boundaries (e.g. Alpental). Personally, i'm OK with this type of recreational development as long as it is consistent with other legitimate uses (say second home leases or the function of special use permittees such as Alpental) and done responsibly (say, no chipping, glueing, littering, vandalism, and so on) and with appropriate environmental mitigation (say, method for disposing human waste, trail construction if needed to curb erosion).

[Lambone]

Kurt, I think what Merv means is that his opinons, ethics, beliefs...what have you, are not bound by a boundry line on a map. I can respect that...I don't necesaraly agree with it, but it's a worthy standpoint.

 

Why do you have to be such a hater?

[MervGriffin]

It seems like alot of it comes down to how much you really believe in/value the concept of "wilderness". For a local example, I think anyone on this board would have a hard time not getting very angry at a new, rap-bolted line up Dragontail or the N ridge of Stuart, lets say. Imagine a Vantage-style clip-up up Razorback Ridge. I know I got really pissed off when Caveman recently mentioned someone bolting on Prussik (turned out to be hand-drilling).

 

But would I call in Larry the Tool to take care of what I would erase myself in a heartbeat though? Put it in those terms. No, in reality I personally would prob take matters into my own hands and take responsibility for my actions than "tell on" that someone and hope they get a 500$ fine. I think thats the stance of the vast majority of all climbers in North America, sporto or trad or what-have-you.

 

I am asking the question of the fellow quoted above, who seems to have some instinct to be irate, but at the same time might make exceptions for his own activities near Snoqualmie Pass. So again, "how were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road."

 

Also, what The 'bone said.

[Lambone]

They were power drilled Dwayner, you know that. Do you have a point to make? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Alex that put those routes up, but I'm not speaking for him.

 

I think those routes are ok, yet stupid...but whatever.

[MervGriffin]

They were power drilled Dwayner, you know that. Do you have a point to make?

 

I didn't know that but I suspected it, so thanks for the clarification.

 

Yes, Mr. 'bone, I got a point to make. It has to do with this whole thing about where to draw the line. It's like stealing a cookie from a large jar when no one is looking: it's still stealing. Some people might claim outrage if the activity is within the realm of an official, government-declared wilderness region, but at the same time, think it's O.K. if it's a few feet over the border or it's on something that is less cool than Prussik or Dragontail. I think the whole activity needs to be questioned.

 

As "pope" once satirically noted, some alpine bolters would strongly object to snowmobiles riding up mountain valleys, but at least when the snowmobiles are gone, their noise and tracks disappear.

[Dru]

"Two miles from a road" is not wilderness.

"Two days from a road" is approaching wilderness. Too bad there aren't many places in the Lower 48 that meet that definition.

"Two weeks from a road" is wilderness.

[mattp]

I don't doubt that Merv honestly dislikes bolting inside and outside the wilderness but I think Kurt's point that we are talking about selective enforcement has some validity. Off White tried to make this point, too, and was rebuffed but I think some of those who sound as if they advocate turning in someone who uses a power drill are quite willing to violate a permit regulation and to brag about doing so, or to camp outside a designated area or stay longer than allowed in camp 4 or to raise hell with an obnoxious and illegal party in a campground when it suits their purposes - and some of these same individuals would be highly critical of anybody who sought to turn them in so that climbers as a group didn't look bad in the eyes of the authorities.

[Off_White]

There's nothing that's "stealing" about power drilling outside the wilderness boundary. The line you're trying to draw is based on your personal belief, not the law, nor even interpretations of it. I understand you find it offensive, but that doesn't make it a crime.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Hmm drilling into pristine wilderness and walking into it without a permit are 2 different threads and highly debatable depending on who is going and what they are doing including impact.... Some people feel compelled to sleep and shit trampling on perfect meadows with their permits in mass. Others without them on rocks for instance. Lots of room for debate. And thus I think it should be struck out and removed from the thread Can you say thread drift? Nice try.

 

 

"and some of these same individuals would be highly critical of anybody who sought to turn them in so that climbers as a group didn't look bad in the eyes of the authorities" Uh where is that thread or who said that?

[Lambone]

I don't buy the argument that if you break one law or rule then you are not allowed to support any other laws or rules. That is bullshit.

 

If that were true then this world would be chaos. It's like yeah if I smoke pot I might as well just kill people too because I have allready broken one law. Or, I can't support drunk driving laws because I roll the stop sign in my neighborhood every morning. That just doesn't make any sense.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Haha - yeah *everyone* is so pristine - boy nice try.

 

But hey think about what I just said. It does make sense.

 

My main points being the examples were poor *AND* it was thread drift anyways.