Ice-Sporto Litter

[Dru]

Fixed snafflehound left on pagetop!

[RuMR]

quit posting photos of yourself and relatives, prof. wank...

 

 

Feel free to clip any draws you see hanging around...its playground equipment for the children...you see, we can't all be growed up like you, don...

[slothrop]

Merv, people would probably listen to you more if you didn't act like such an asshole when voicing your concerns. When people are condescended to, they tend to tune out or lash out.

 

I agree that leaving draws hanging indefinitely on a project is bad style and that Roger should clean up his mess.

[mattp]

We're arguing only with ourselves here -- on the issue of these draws. There has not been one poster to write that he should have left them there this long -- and several have said it is poor form.

 

It has become established practice at lots of climbing areas, though. Is it simply the passage of time that offends us, or are we on this bulletin board a breed apart from our peers?

[Dru]

lets face it, draws left hanging for a year get all ratty and uv-bleached, and they aren't very desirable booty, it's probably the only reason they are still there.

[rbw1966]

Draws hang on hard sport routes at Smith for long periods of time as well. Thats been the practice for as long as I've been climbing there (~15 years).

 

I disagree with the practice as well. But I can barely pull my fat ass up a 5.10.

[Dru]

Ya but those draws don't get as weathered cause the projector tend to replace the sketchmo ones... the draws do vanish off of abandoned projects.

[AlpineK]

Merv, people would probably listen to you more if you didn't act like such an asshole when voicing your concerns. When people are condescended to, they tend to tune out or lash out.

 

I agree that leaving draws hanging indefinitely on a project is bad style and that Roger should clean up his mess.

 

No shit. I might agree with some of Don's points, but he's such a jerk about how he represents himself that I wouldn't even bother to listen to his oppinion let alone debate him.

 

By the way Don how's that training going? When are you going to climb a 5.13? I'm still willing to pay you.

[JayB]

Non-issue. If you leave the state, take the draws with you.

[pope]

Merv, people would probably listen to you more if you didn't act like such an asshole when voicing your concerns. When people are condescended to, they tend to tune out or lash out.

 

On the other hand, I was invited to a brunch-style meeting with a guy who practices some of the activities we're discussing here. Our conversation was civil. We ejoyed a wheat-grass beverage, a bowl of yam soup and shared our views on developing sport-mixed climbs at the Pass. Bottom line is, it doesn't really matter how politely we object, this shit is going to happen. I was informed of a "vision for 30 more routes" of similar nature in the area. There didn't seem to be any understanding that for those with time limitations, the valley is a special place where one can find a little wilderness just around the corner from an interstate and ski hill. Nor was there an admission that the hardware presented any significant visual impact that might be objectionable. There was, however, vocal disapproval for the chopping of Dan's Dreadful Direct and another Castle Rock sport route that had been crowded next to Saints. We concluded with a "good to see ya" and a hand shake, but we didn't reach any kind of compromise or agreement. Instead, I was asked to stop criticizing the activity.

 

I think it's important to realize that climbers exist....very active climbers...who have a radically different view of what's appropriate. They see the mountains as their personal playground, and they believe that permanent alterations resulting in visual impacts that are objectionable to others are acceptable behaviors.

 

"Don't like bolts? Take it up at Smith!" some suggest. That place wasn't always an ethical abomination. Maybe somebody should have been more vocal from the onset.

 

"It's not wilderness. There's a ski area just around the corner." But it is a place where many recreationists go for wilderness, to escape steel and engineering.

[olyclimber]

 

God Man says there is plenty of wilderness left in the universe. Why not destroy the sanctity of earth with bolts and quickdraws...there are plenty of untouched planets out there. Its all in my plan.

[chirp]

Boring, fucking, NON issue. NEXT..

[MervGriffin]

Merv, people would probably listen to you more if you didn't act like such an asshole when voicing your concerns. When people are condescended to, they tend to tune out or lash out.

 

I agree that leaving draws hanging indefinitely on a project is bad style and that Roger should clean up his mess.

 

No shit. I might agree with some of Don's points, but he's such a jerk about how he represents himself that I wouldn't even bother to listen to his oppinion let alone debate him.

 

By the way Don how's that training going? When are you going to climb a 5.13? I'm still willing to pay you.

 

How old are you, bully-boy? 15?

 

I really don't care too much if you reject my style of discourse. Look at the horse-sheit you regularly post! How about addressing the issue instead of formenting a personal attack? (I never named names in this situation, I merely expressed my outrage.) And by the way, Karl, Kurt, or whatever your name is, the training is going great but your frat-boy challenge and pathetic "reward" are both uninteresting to me.

[slothrop]

I really don't care too much if you reject my style of discourse.

 

If you don't care how people react to your invective, then why do you bother? You'll never convince anyone that you have anything useful to say if you belittle them in the course of saying it. Maybe you just like to hear yourself speak.

[AlpineK]

Don you are so easy to troll it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

For years you have either explicitly or implicitly stated on cc that sport climbing and sport climbers are gay. Let me edjucate you a little. When you start a debate like you always do you close off any real discussion.

 

In my view you aren't looking for a debate; your just looking for a lecturn and a mass audience to spout your views to. If you really cared about the issue you'd be writing letters to the Access Fund or to the folks who are actually putting up the routes you profess to hate.

 

I know you don't climb much anymore, so let me clue you in to modern climbing. If you climb a lot now a days then you climb both sport and trad. Both forms of climbing are challenging in their own way. Look around the world of climbing some of the best sport climbers can crank some hard cracks when they want to.

 

I'll agree with the point that climbers shouldn't leave their draws on a climb for long periods of time both from the view of aesthetics and also from a view of safety...all that uv radiation weakens the draws over time.

 

What I don't agree with is your bluster and bs.

 

Tell me have you ever actually convinced anyone who sets routes that they are wrong and that they should stop? Let me answer that for you... No

 

BTW it's Kurt

[Alpine_Tom]

A trail redpoint is the first time you hike successfully lead hike it without getting lost. Pinkpoint if any flagging tape is encountered.

What if you pre-place your own flagging tape?

[RuMR]

Don you are so easy to troll it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

For years you have either explicitly or implicitly stated on cc that sport climbing and sport climbers are gay. Let me edjucate you a little. When you start a debate like you always do you close off any real discussion.

 

In my view you aren't looking for a debate; your just looking for a lecturn and a mass audience to spout your views to. If you really cared about the issue you'd be writing letters to the Access Fund or to the folks who are actually putting up the routes you profess to hate.

 

I know you don't climb much anymore, so let me clue you in to modern climbing. If you climb a lot now a days then you climb both sport and trad. Both forms of climbing are challenging in their own way. Look around the world of climbing some of the best sport climbers can crank some hard cracks when they want to.

 

I'll agree with the point that climbers shouldn't leave their draws on a climb for long periods of time both from the view of aesthetics and also from a view of safety...all that uv radiation weakens the draws over time.

 

What I don't agree with is your bluster and bs.

 

Tell me have you ever actually convinced anyone who sets routes that they are wrong and that they should stop? Let me answer that for you... No

 

BTW it's Kurt

 

Very succinct and precisely put!

[pope]

Tell me have you ever actually convinced anyone who sets routes that they are wrong and that they should stop? Let me answer that for you... No

 

People hell-bent on bolting every cliff in the universe aren't going to listen to objections no matter what the tone. Let me ask you, Kurt, if somebody in your neighborhood was known for dumping trash down at the city park, what approach would you take? Would you ignore it? Would you politely remind them that their actions are not appropriate, then sit back to see if they alter their behavior? I don't think so. The only reasonable solution is to expose the culprits and keep the lights shining on their behavior until they're too embarassed to continue.

[AlpineK]

If somebody I knew was dumping trash in my neighborhood. I would first ask them not to, and if they then continued I'd call the cops since it's a crime.

 

What I would not do is go onto a civic internet board equivilant of CC.com and whine about it.

[pope]

If somebody I knew was dumping trash in my neighborhood. I would first ask them not to, and if they then continued I'd call the cops since it's a crime.

 

What I would not do is go onto a civic internet board equivilant of CC.com and whine about it.

 

Right, but we don't have rock cops, and there is no law specifically banning bolting/leaving quickdraws near Source Lake. Like dumping an old mattress at the park, however, it's just poor style.

[RuMR]

Tell me have you ever actually convinced anyone who sets routes that they are wrong and that they should stop? Let me answer that for you... No

 

People hell-bent on bolting every cliff in the universe aren't going to listen to objections no matter what the tone. Let me ask you, Kurt, if somebody in your neighborhood was known for dumping trash down at the city park, what approach would you take? Would you ignore it? Would you politely remind them that their actions are not appropriate, then sit back to see if they alter their behavior? I don't think so. The only reasonable solution is to expose the culprits and keep the lights shining on their behavior until they're too embarassed to continue.

 

you and dwayner, with his lame ass photo spreads, aren't going to embarass anybody...sorry 'bout that, alter-boy...

[RuMR]

If somebody I knew was dumping trash in my neighborhood. I would first ask them not to, and if they then continued I'd call the cops since it's a crime.

 

What I would not do is go onto a civic internet board equivilant of CC.com and whine about it.

 

Right, but we don't have rock cops, and there is no law specifically banning bolting/leaving quickdraws near Source Lake. Like dumping an old mattress at the park, however, it's just poor style.

 

style, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder...its poor style to YOU...maybe not so for others, eh?

[MervGriffin]

Don you are so easy to troll it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Look! "Alpine K" responds....AGAIN.

 

For years you have either explicitly or implicitly stated on cc that sport climbing and sport climbers are gay.

 

Gay??? Absolutely not. Sexual preference has nothing to do with it.

Weak??? Yes...and I don't mean weak in the physical sense of some of its practioners possess amazing strength. I mean weak in concept and practice.

There probably are some gay sport-climbers but that's none of my business.

No one requires that you or anyone else agree.

 

Let me edjucate you a little. When you start a debate like you always do you close off any real discussion.

 

Hmmmm. Four pages of it so far including your nasty retorts. Some of it has brought up interesting points.

 

In my view you aren't looking for a debate; your just looking for a lecturn and a mass audience to spout your views to. If you really cared about the issue you'd be writing letters to the Access Fund or to the folks who are actually putting up the routes you profess to hate.

 

Those might be your approaches of choice, but not mine. I don't particularly support the Access Fund and I don't know or really care who the specific culprits are. You don't like my style: too bad. I personally think your's sucks but to each his own. By the way, I wasn't looking for a debate in my original post. I was pointing out a situation.

 

I know you don't climb much anymore, so let me clue you in to modern climbing.

 

You don't know much about me, pal, or what I do, so don't pretend you do. What's next?: "I climb more than you do...nyah, nyah, nyah, nyah..." Should I make a second check for the "Dwayner-doesn't-climb-much" cams you might have installed on my car or wherever?

 

If you climb a lot now a days then you climb both sport and trad.

 

Nonsense. Do you really think I am the only climber who rejects sport?

 

I'll agree with the point that climbers shouldn't leave their draws on a climb for long periods of time both from the view of aesthetics and also from a view of safety...all that uv radiation weakens the draws over time.

What I don't agree with is your bluster and bs.

 

You don't have to agree with "the bluster and b.s.", i.e. your assessment of my approach. By the way, re-read many of your own posts in light of such a comment.

 

Tell me have you ever actually convinced anyone who sets routes that they are wrong and that they should stop? Let me answer that for you... No

 

I can answer that myself as there is really no way that you have polled all climbers. I bring awareness to other perspectives that I feel are not regularly represented here. I'd venture to say that there are large numbers of "modern" climbers who have little inkling that sport-bolting might be controverial, that bringing such into the mountains or on trad crags might cause an uproar, or that leaving your gear hanging in the woods for your own convenience might be in poor form. Actually you'd be surprised at the number of people who have either thanked me for my contributions or have positively commented on them.

[RuMR]

Dwayner, a real question for you...please don't answer with sarcasm...

 

Is there any place that it would be acceptable to bolt for sport climbing? and, please, spare me the response of "why of course, young laddie, the gym!!!"

 

Or do you and your views hold sway, in your mind, over every single crag in the good ol' USA (i say your mind, cuz its not necessarily illegal everywhere)?

 

whoops, snuck an extra question in...

[AlpineK]

At least your not posting your stupid photos. Too bad you choose to respond in the unreadable MtGoat fashion.

 

I don't think I need to know in detail what you've been doing recently to say that you don't climb much. If you did climb a lot you be either out doing it and not posting here or you post trip reports or participate in other climbing related threads that don't have anything to do with bolting.

 

I do remember seeing you a lot at Index in the early 90's. Every time I'd walk by the lower wall you'd be solo aiding City Park. You didn't seem to have much issues with the bolt ladder at the bottom.

 

Anyway please answer the questions.

 

Have you ever directly contacted folks who are out setting bolted routes?

 

Have you ever convinced one of those route setters to not put up a route?