Looking ahead - Next Step

[Dru]

there's a eating nuts on the next step

[Alpinfox]

I believe that connecting to the anchor with a couple of daisies (or slings) and locking biners is the most foolproof and least clusterfuckish solution for newbie climbers.

 

Snow,

If you are ready to go out with another newbie friend and set up your own topropes, then it's time to buy a rope and an assortment of slings. If you are ready to lead some easier routes (Exit 38) then buy about a dozen quickdraws as well. Until then, I think your money is better spent on learning how to climb (mentor, gym, classes) and learning how to climb safely (mentor, John Long's books, classes).

[willstrickland]

Also, If YOU are going to be the one threading the rope through the anchors, be sure to pull up a few meters and tie a loop to clip to yourself so you don't drop the rope.

 

I'll take this one step further. I see alot of people who just tie a quick overhand and clip it to a gear loop. I always clip it to my belay or tie-in loop. Then untie, thread, re-tie, then unclip the bight. If for some reason your connection to the anchor failed...or even the anchor itself failed, while you were untying/threading/retying, your ass would be saved. If it's clipped to your gear loop...splat.

 

Also, I'm with Dru on the personal anchor sitchmo. I do, however, still tie into two bolt anchors with an atomic clip (aka 2 leg bowline on a bight) if I'm swinging leads on a long multi-pitch. I also clove into the anchor with the rope while using the daisy.

 

Snowbyrd, I would pick up a rope, John Long's "Climbing Anchors" book, a couple of over the shoulder sewn slings (which will serve multiple purposes such as a "personal anchor", rigging toprope anchors, extendable quickdraw, etc), and some 1" tubular webbing which can serve almost any purpose under the sun...you can rig TR anchors with it, tie it into slings, tie it into a makeshift harness, use it for raps, and on and on.

[eric8]

tying in with the rope is a good habit to get into

 

right now if your just tr'ing stuff at 38 your probably okay with what you have. maybe get 2 over the shoulder sewn slings. I think the more you climb the more of an understanding of what you want/need and you like/don't you will gain so i would go out a few more times before making any purchases.

[AaronB]

Don't forget your 2nd "chalk" bag.. usefull spot to keep your

[bDubyaH]

since you are new to the sport and looking to get a rope. i highly recommend a minimum diameter of 10.2mm. they handle great are plenty fine for trad and sport and top-rope and will last longer than the ultra-light 9 mills. oh, and i wouldn't get a rope shorter than 60 m, unless it is just for glacier travel.

have fun

[selkirk]

If your looking for quick draws, Mammut makes some nice versatile ones. 2 lightweight wiregates, and a single length (2 ft) 8mm sling. Good for sport since they aren't bulky but good for trad/alpine as well since they're light and extendable...

 

For rope.. go cheap and beefy. Something you can drag in the dirt and step on a few times. No need for the 9.4 light, dry, blah, blah, blah, blah......

 

big yep on the helmet.

 

Also, if you don't want to by a daisy, a double length (4 ft) sewn runner works great and is much cheaper than the PAS. If you need adjustability just throw in a bunch of figure eights to section it off into smaller loops. (again, the 8 mm mammut slings are nice for this since they're not bulky and cumbersome).

 

And of course don't forget the #5 Camalot to hang off your harness so you look cool at the crags!

 

[sicprobo]

Hey Snowbyrd, you'll need some daisy chains for next week when we go and do some aid climbing at Index. No...just kidding! You shouldn't worry about the gear, since you are still learning. The advice on this thread is good. I have learned the unfun way of what it is like when you are belaying someone heavier than you and they take a fall which sends you flying off your feet into the air. It is a good idea to be anchored, what-ever you use for it. Maybe you should find that out for yourself. (oh so fun) When I get to a belay station, the first thing I do is hook in with a daisy chain, but I have seen on this thread that they aren't that important. I have always had a use for a daisy chain. I would throw one into your shopping cart.You will figure out what you need just by getting out and climbing with other people. Seeing their gear, and asking them how you use it is a much better idea than going into a store and asking someone who works there to help you pick out gear, and to explain what it is for or how to use it, or you can just do what you are doing and post questions here!

[SnowByrd]

Hey Snowbyrd, you'll need some daisy chains for next week when we go and do some aid climbing at Index.

 

I dunno what aid climbing is but I'm up for a climb at Index as long as somebody more experienced says I'm ready for it I just need more notice. OR....maybe an overnight (Friday) camp out and a full day of climbing on Saturday/Sunday? Its just something to thnk about.

[fenderfour]

Deleted due to my ignorance.

 

Please forgive me for recommending a safer way.

Edited July 20, 2004 by fenderfour

[Dru]

i always use a daisy chain to attach myself to an anchor and i have been climbing for 15 years

 

i have taken factor-2 falls onto a daisy chain

 

dangerous habits! my oh my

 

that said I'd get a PAS too.

[fenderfour]

-<shrug>- it's your ass, not mine.

[Alpinfox]

Even if you clip the daisy properly, a large fall will cause the loops to fail, zipping you out to the end of the daisy and putting a shock load on the system.

 

F4,

Don't scare the poor girl with your misunderstood dynamics and poorly defined terms like "shockload". If by "shockload" you mean a fall on an inelastic system like a daisy or sling, that isn't going to happen in free climbing because the climber is going to be tied to the ROPE which is DYNAMIC. While it's true that a relatively modest fall force on most brands of daisies will rip the loops, that doesn't reduce the strength of the daisy iteslf. It's still ~20kn, just like a sling. And furthermore, one should belay through the anchor, not directly from one's harness when clipped into an anchor, so the daisy shouldn't even "see" that force.

 

 

Daisies work great and don't cost as much as that PAS gimmickry.

 

edit: You are correct that one should never clip a biner to more than one loop on a daisy at the same time though. That IS dangerous.

Edited July 20, 2004 by Alpinfox

[fenderfour]

As I said I know nothing....

[RuMR]

If you have more than one loop clipped, and you fall on the daisy and rip the stitched loops you are clipped to, you will be "outside" the main loop and will no longer be attached to the daisy...this renders your argument moot (who cares how strong the main loop is if you aren't clipped to it?)

[Alpinfox]

 

RUMR Note my edit above. I don't think it renders my arguement moot, daisies are still a great personal anchor system, but newbies should know about the issue.

 

I tried to find a picture on the web to illustrate the potential danger, but I couldn't find one. If anyone has seen one, perhaps they could post it here?

[SnowByrd]

Hey Icegirl....Dryad...what were you using last week?

[fenderfour]

For the record, I'm not trying to scare anyone. What I am trying to do is add a different perspective to the board. Most of the posters have been climbing for a long time and use complicated techniques and take extra risks because they know what they are doing. I have seen more than one newbie ask a question and get buried in a pile of complicated explanations or have things recommended that aren't necessarily unsafe, but have more risk involved than other easy methods.

 

Example: I could show a new climber a double bowline with yos finish to tie in with - Yes, it is a better knot and easier to untie, but it is more complicated and has a higher risk for error than a figure eight.

 

By recommending the use of a daisy for a personal anchor while belaying from your harness (as I see most people doing), you are assuming a certain amount of risk for a new climber. You are assuming that they won't double clip the loops, you are assuming that they know the loops can fail under small loads. These are a few reasons why I recommended a sling in the first place. If you want something adjustable and bomb-proof, you can tie a daisy out of some 9/16ths webbing. It's almost as versatile and a lot more mistake-proof.

[sicprobo]

Alpinfox is right, don't scare Snowbyrd, although I don't think she can be easily scared off, she seems to be pretty brave. Anyroad, I said that when I reach a belay station, I clip in to the anchor using a daisy chain, to get off-belay. I leave it clipped while I am also tied into the anchor. I don't know if I am explaining that correctly, so Snowbyrd I hope I am not confusing you. A daisy chain is also a good way to anchor yourself while belaying someone heavier, so you don't lose your purchase when they fall. I was joking about the aid climbing, although even beginners can learn aid climbing. I am definately not an expert climber, and I am not trying to teach you anything about climbing here in this thread, just suggesting that a daisy chain is a good thing to have, in my humble opinion. And who knows, we might see Snowbyrd racing off to Index to try this aid climbing she hasnt' heard of. She is such an avid climber, I wouldn't put it past her.

[icegirl]

climbed my first 6 years with a two daisys, then switched to a knotted double length spectra runner X 2 (one for each anchor bolt - in case the leader is planning to stretch the pitch and needs all the rope he can get) 1. for weight, 2. versatiliity 3. makes sense (no one had explained them to me, I _thought_ daisies were the end all)

 

I still use my daisys for ground anchors when cragging (belaying those big boys) and hopefully will use them again when I try my hand at aid climbing (why I got them in the first place)

 

Runners are my favorite so far. Keeping it simple seems the best course of action, especially when anchors and tying in are concerned.

[SnowByrd]

Avid? Thank You for the compliment, but maybe you mean someone else? I look so competent from those pictures IceGirl posted last week...especially the one where I'm about 8 feet off the ground getting ready to put my knee up onto the next move....lesson learned there...I STILL have the bruises to show for it

 

No, seriously, I asked the questions and the different feedback is interesting. I just take it in tow, as I mostly have no idea what people are talking about. Its the people like you who state your opinion and then back it up with a reason you have that particular preference and explanation of what you're talking about that I will probably mostly listen to. Like I said, I have ALOT to learn....and being a person who has learned to use my brain, I will err on the side of caution and safety(both other people's and my own). I'm not scared, just got alot of information

 

Thanks Everybody!

[carolyn]

buy your own rope

 

When I bought my first rope I was asking one of my coworkers which one he thought would be best. His response....

For what? climbing? Dont you already climb with people who have a rope? Why do you need one?

 

I thought it was funny and true.

i bought one anyway so I could start becoming less dependant on others.

[icegirl]

hah. I actually had a BF ask that same question when I bought my first rope and draws. Didn't stop me either. That rope sat around (or got drivin around) more than it was used for the first year (well, I guess it did go cragging a few times, everyone laughing at me while they used my rope, sure, we'll use YOU'RE rope)... It got me thinking tho, and exaclty what carolyn described happened to me, I became less dependant on others for the "pre-packaged climbing experience" ..

[carolyn]

everyone laughing at me while they used my rope, sure, we'll use YOU'RE rope)...

 

I often "forget" my own rope now days unless Im planning on leading.

[tomtom]

As I said I know nothing....

 

If you girth hitch or slip knot the biner to the end of the daisy, then it can't rip out. Also, use the rope as the primary line to the anchor for belaying, not a daisy.

 

Now you know the rest of the story.