Anyone else seriously lift?

[Blake]

I know that this isn't climbing specific, being having overall strength and fitness does help you in various outdoor activities. Who else seriously weight trains? What kind of routine are you currently doing? Do you modify or add any lifts to give yourself more "climbing strength"? I do a 4 day split with two days lower and two days upper body. I like to stick to compound movements like weighted chinups, Bench press, overhead press, rows, and dips for the upper body. Squats, deadlifts, stiff-legged deadlifts, and dynamic lunges for lower body.

[skyclimb]

 

I usually do 1-2 reps and 3 or so sets.

[fenderfour]

I have found that lunges help immensely with the approach. I've tried a few different things to help my climbing, but it's finger strength that always fails me. I guess my considerable bulk is just too much for those smaller forearm muscles.

[jonthomp]

I like skyclimb's idea and it gets you mentally ready for the delirium you experience on those really long alpine days.

 

On a more serious note--I did lift for awhile to rehab after breaking my wrist. I followed John Long's "workout from hell". It basically involves three 6-8 week sessions. One that focuses on endurance, one on power, and one that combines the two. It is a two day on, two day off routine. The first day on focuses on chest/arms, the second day shoulders/back with 2-4 exercises per muscle group. For the endurance phase, crank out 3 sets of 30 reps apiece. Be sure that the weight is such that you reach failure at 30. Keep the recovery pretty minimal and the puke bucket handy for the first weeks. For power, do the same routine, but up the weight so you reach failure by no more than 6 reps. Again do three sets of each exercise. I felt good enough after eight weeks of this that I just started climbing for more training, but the results seemed pretty incredible. It's a mentally tough workout to sustain and you can't expect to climb well while doing it. You'll just be too tired and the muscles need recovery. Lower body? I don't know. I just run and ski and climb and hike.

 

Now that you've got me contemplating lifting weights, I think I'll have another

 

PS--the WFH was more thoroughly described in Rock and Ice from many, many years ago.

[lummox]

Who else seriously weight trains?

who the fuk jokingly weight trains?

i mix in plyometric shizzle. that way i get power. i get endurance. i get boing.

[John Frieh]

Blake: I cycle lifting weights (months on followed by a month off) with other forms of exercise. I use the U. of Oregon's football team lifting program that is designed to build lean muscle mass... i.e strength without the bulk. I have found it helps me in the alpine realm when combined with excellent cardio conditioning (though I would say cardio is much more important for alpine than strength).

 

Speaking of which; lifting weights will help for alpine climbing the most; all other types it is debatable, if not detrimental (i.e. sport and aid). The way to look at it is if you increase you maximum squat (one rep) for example; you can then do more reps at a lower weight than someone whose maximum squat is less than yours. Translate this to alpine and you can carry more weight in your pack as fast as someone with a lighter pack or…. even better you can go further and/or longer with a pack weight than someone with the same weight on their back but squats less than you. The big disclaimer is that both people have the same cardio. You have to be careful not to bulk though; my trad leading ability jumped a grade once I stopped lifting weights in a manner oriented to benefit me for football… when I stopped I could bench 290 and squat 350; these days there is no way I could put that up, however by lifting in a manner geared towards lean muscle mass I can do more reps with lower weights (ex: as many reps before burnout with 100 lbs) then I could when I was a meat head.

 

I would recommend reading a few books before you go throwing iron around; I can gladly provide you with some titles or the lifting program I use.

 

And before all you flame on about football players or lifting weights; remember Mugs Stumps was a linebacker at Penn State (if you even know who that is ).

[cj001f]

And before all you flame on about football players or lifting weights; remember Mugs Stumps was a linebacker at Penn State (if you even know who that is ).

You mean was.

 

You said the Ducks program's designed to build lean mass? Aren't most football players looking to bulk up? This could explaing the duck's performance.

[John Frieh]

No; football players aren't looking to bulk up; bulking up = slower. The scary part is when they build enough lean muscle mass that they appear bulky but are actually fast. Case in point Igor Olshansky: he can bench press 225 lbs 41 times (his max is over 500 lbs) but he can run a sub 5 second 40. You better hope he doesn't catch you...

 

And please don't turn this perfectly applicable thread into squabbling over whose team is better... college is about who offers the best education; not whose football team is best. If football was what matter then how do you explain all the people who would go to Harvard or MIT if given the chance (does MIT even have a football team?)? If you want to debate football, please go to rivals.com.

[Blake]

Any body mass that isn't fat is lean body mass (LBM) NOLSe, how does your program add lean muscle mass but not bulk? Are you just saying that you eat/train the right amount to add muscle yet minimal fat at the same time?

[John Frieh]

Are you just saying that you eat/train the right amount to add muscle yet minimal fat at the same time?

 

Yes (kinda). The amount of reps and amount of time you take to complete the program (no more than 1 hour a day) is structured to increase muscle endurance (high rep low weight) more than strength (low rep high weight). As you get stronger you will gain some weight, but overall your strength to weight ratio will increase and you will benefit. That is why lifting is better for alpine as the increased body weight is worth the increase in strength, where in sport or aid it isn’t. Make sense?

[Blake]

yeah, i see. You aren't aiming for the hypertrophy. I saw in some random climbing book at Barnes and Noble today some advice that you should do basic lifts like military or bench presses, but never usng more than ~80% of your body weight or soemthing. I thought this was a stupid piece of advice, because it would just lead to plateauing and stagnating strength gains. Why not keep striving for the highest weight you can go for X number of reps/sets?

[John Frieh]

I thought this was a stupid piece of advice, because it would just lead to plateauing and stagnating strength gains. Why not keep striving for the highest weight you can go for X number of reps/sets?

 

I know this sounds wack, but is some what accurate. A few reasons for plateauing are:

 

Doing the same workout (same number of reps and lifts) day in and out only results in your body acclimating to it which results in plateauing over time.

 

Secondly (and more important) bulk and pure strength tends to increase from high weight/low rep work outs where as endurance is the opposite: lower weights/higher reps (too many reps will result in no gain or even loss in max lift). You can still increase you max lift through a lean muscle mass approach, but it is much slower compared to the bulk approach. Generally one can lift 80-65% of their max for a few reps (which results in bulking) and 65% or less many times (which results in endurance).

 

The whole idea behind it is how much muscle you are destroying; with a few reps not that much is destroyed so each time your body recovers you build a little more than last time hence the bulking. On the flip side lots of reps results in more damage, so only the endurance muscle fibers (I am glossing over a lot of science here sorry) last and over time you build more and more of those (bulking is slower, if not at all).

 

The workout I use specifies how much percentage of your max you should lift for that particular set in addition to recovery times. It’s scary; when I first started doing it I almost puked a few times as the amount (high rep volume) in combo with the time frame (it tell you how long to rest in between sets) beat the shit out of me.

 

One other thing: generally I ignore climbing books advice on weight training as I lift weight for alpine, not rock climbing. I would recommend these:

 

Conditioning for Outdoor Fitness: A Comprehensive Training Guide,

 

A Step Beyond: A Definitive Guide to Ultrarunning , and How to be a badass for some good reading.

[skykilo]

I did squats and deadlifts yesterday. Here's to compound exercises that build core strength.

 

Personally, I'm a big believer in always going to failure. People freak out when they see me deck in the squat rack. Dudes is like, "Yo, you need a spot?"

All I can do is laugh, "No man, that's why the cage is there."

[ashw_justin]

I did squats and deadlifts yesterday. Here's to compound exercises that build core strength.

 

Personally, I'm a big believer in always going to failure. People freak out when they see me deck in the squat rack. Dudes is like, "Yo, you need a spot?"

All I can do is laugh, "No man, that's why the cage is there."

 

Haha you're crazy man. Last time I seriously did squats and deadlifts was in high school PE (we took weight training so we wouldn't have to play volleyball and crap). I once serious screwed up my back doing box squats by twisting a little with almost 300 lbs on my back (275?). Then there were the power cleans, talk about core power...

 

Ok time for spray. Hullo caller, how much yah bench? I put up 225 once in the college days. But I'm just a little guy.

 

Hey man, when I start going to the U maybe I'll have to come be your lifting buddy.

[Bronco]

I think your typical 5'8" 150lb climber would see quite a bit of benefit from putting on 10 - 15lbs of muscle, especially in the alpine.

 

It's pretty rare to see a climber who has so much muscle that it's working against them, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[jon]

Deadlifts

[Bronco]

[Greg_W]

squats, straight-leg deadlifts, front squats, powercleans...all of these have given me more strength for kicking steps; I've noticed significant gains.

 

For me, lifting has helped me maintain good strength and core conditioning over the winter and shortened the time it took me to get back to climbing where I was last fall (or close to it, anyway). I do legs one day, lats/delts another, biceps/triceps after that, chest next...or a variation of that schedule. One nice thing to bring on the pain is stacking exercises; by that I mean on bicep/tricep day, do ALL your bicep lifts in sequence, THEN do all your tricep lifts. Man, you'll feel that. Helps with endurance, too.

[Billygoat]

Hey Greg, I can sure tell because you fart like your core is conditioned to push stuff out before it has time to properly digest

 

(that's actually why I "forgot" to bring the tent)

 

oops, did I foul this thread?

[mattyg]

This is easily found on the web but I thought I'd post it here for posterity.

 

The Workout from Hell

 

By John Long

 

The "Workout from Hell" (WFH), is not my invention (though the name is), nor was it designed for climbers; but having struggled through it, I'm confident the training will work like magic for any climber. Be forewarned: it is time-consuming and arduous.

 

Some months ago when I began competitive flatwater kayaking, a professional trainer -sort of an iron guru- was assigned to me, with direct orders to whip me into race shape. As I've done my time in the gym, the notion of a special weight geek shadowing me seemed absurd. Just type up the routine and I'll do it myself! WRONG. My "trainer" was no geek, and whatever he was doing worked, because pound for pound, he was the strongest fellow I'd ever seen. More that just an "iron rat", he had recently run a 2:37 marathon. I never would have made it through the workout's first phase had he not been on my case. On occasion, I wanted to kill that man. Now I'd buy him the moon if I could afford it.

 

I was the first guinea pig my trainer put through the WFH, a cruel experiment combining various strategies and philosophies, proven and otherwise.

 

The routine is strictly a weight program designed to significantly increase both strength and endurance, with no increase in body weight (providing you watch your diet). High strength to weight ratio is the ideal for flatwater kayaking, as well as climbing. No doubt someone, somewhere, has gone through a similar "progressive" program, but was considerate enough to keep it a relative secret!

 

This routine assumes certain physiological laws and techniques which are often ignored by climbers, though they are followed religiously by serious lifters. And the "WFH" is dead serious.

 

First Law:

You train the WHOLE physique, not just the muscles associated with climbing or kayaking movements. If you neglect training the antagonistic muscles, an imbalanced, injury-prone machine results. It's fine to center on sport specific muscles, but not to the exclusion of the rest of your body!

 

Second Law:

Pick a muscle group, do exercises which best isolate those muscles, then trash them. Third Law:

Allow the muscles at least 48 hours to recover before blasting them again.

 

Ignore any of these precepts and you'll get something less than the maximum results. No one of flesh and blood can avoid it.

 

Phase I

2 days on, 1 day off, 2 days on, 2 days off. That means 4 days a week in the gym. Day 1 you work back and chest; Day 2, shoulders and arms. Then take a day off. Repeat the process before enjoying 2 days off.

 

DAY ONE:

(Back and Chest) Crank 3 sets of 4 back exercises, equaling a total of 12 sets. Of the many back exercises, concentrate on the primary ones: Pull-downs, cable rows, T-bar rows, and maybe 1 final set on a machine (or wide-grip chins). 3 sets of 4 exercises applies to the chest as well. Again, go with free-weight exercises, which tend to be more effective than machines. I usually did flys, flat-back and incline dumbbell presses and finished on the pec-deck. You can consider the last exercises a bonus and change it weekly to add variety.

 

DAY TWO:

(Shoulders and Arms) 3 sets of 4 exercises for shoulders, (12 total). 3 sets of 3 exercises for both biceps and triceps, (9 sets for both). Again, concentrate on the grueling, primary exercises: Seated military presses, standing cable rows, and lateral dumbbell raises for the shoulders (plus you bonus machine exercise); preacher E-Z bar curls, seated dumbbell curls, etc... for the guns; close-grip presses, standing (with bar or rope) and flat back extensions for the triceps.

 

A Note: "Primary" simply refers to the motions which bomb the muscles most effectively - the basic, fundamental movements. The refining exercises (like concentration curls and cable cross-overs) are not part of this routine. Fact is, no one short of the bionic man would have enough gas to bother with anything beyond the recommended sets.

 

"The crux":

You must do 30 reps per set! Yes.. you read that correctly. It's an insane amount of reps and will absolutely trash you for the first few weeks. You'll definitely need a training partner. Otherwise, once you get to around 20 reps, you'll quit. It's also important to load the weights so you can do 30 reps but no more. Expect to fail miserably and have to stop for short breathers at first. After a few weeks you should manage to pump off 30 reps, if just barely. After that, increase the poundage ASAP.

 

More important that weight is form, which must be correct. This is very hard after 20 reps. Your training partner should watch closely and correct you form when it gets loose.

 

A couple important things: The initial weeks of this first phase are devastating. I slogged through this routine after paddling for 1.5 hours in the morning and spent much of the first 2 weeks taking naps and bluffing my way through work. You must get adequate rest and eat ample amounts of complex carbs -spuds and brown rice in particular- to fuel the effort. Also eat enough protein. You certainly don't need the 150 grams body builders consume to create those freaky builds; but you'll probably need somewhere around 40 grams to avoid lassitude and zero drive. About 3 weeks into the first phase I got dead lazy and couldn't figure out why. A blood test determined I had mild sports anemia, easily rectified by eating a can of tuna or several pieces of chicken daily. I'm not sure what a vegetarian would have to do - soybeans, frijoles, whatever. Skip the protein, you'll go down HARD.

 

Don't get discouraged by the fact that initially you'll probably have to use baby weights to accomplish 30 reps. (You know, those funky little chrome dumbbells with 15 lbs. stamped on the end. If you're in an honest to god iron gym, you might have to blow the dust off of em') the difference between 20 and 30 reps is the difference between 5.8 and 5.12 (providing you maintain perfect form). If you are in reasonable overall shape, getting adequate rest and nutrition, you will adjust in a matter of weeks.

 

The remarkable burn you'll feel at around 20 reps is nothing more than lactic acid build-up. The best way to limit this is to make sure you continue breathing as you pump out the reps - particularly important after 20. You will never get totally used to it, but you can get to where working through the burn is at least possible. And remember..., stretch between sets.

 

After you can finish the workout without stopping mid-set to rest, continue the 30 rep routine for 1 month. It may well be the longest month of your life (It was for me), though there's some insane satisfaction in simply surviving such a grueling program. It's no fun, but one doesn't embark on this purely for fun!

 

Phase II

This involves exactly the same routine, 2 days on 1 off, 2 on, 2 off. Now reduce the reps to 14. You'll savor going to the gym because you don't have to crank off 30 reps on every exercise. Adjust you poundage so that when you hit 15 reps on a given exercise, you have nothing left -absolutely nothing! You will not be able to double the poundage, but should be able to increase it considerably, perhaps by 30%. Remarkably, you can continue adding weight and cutting down rests between sets, which signals that you are coming into you own. Once you've dialed into it, continue with the 15-rep cycle for 3 weeks.

 

Phase III

Same routine, but cut reps down to 5-6 and go for the max. weight you can possibly heft on every last set. Don't worry about how long you rest between, just go after the big-time iron. Do this for 3 weeks, adding more weight every session. This is the least tortuous phase in terms of pain, but requires the most concentrated effort. Always remember to maintain you form... perfect form!

 

Phase IV

Still pump 3 sets of every exercise but now do 30, 15 and 5 reps for each. This is a tapering or "peaking" phase and after 2 weeks, you cut down to every other day and finally 2 days on and 3 days off. At the end, both your strength and endurance have increased dramatically and you're ready to third-class the Salathe'!

 

Summary

Phase 1 is a conditioning cycle which increases you vascularity and endurance, tones, and kicks your ass something terrible. Phase 2 maintains endurance and builds strength commensurate to how much weight you stack on. Phase 3 goes after "raw-power", which is easily summoned after the tremendous conditioning you have received from the previous 2 cycles. The last phase blends everything together.

 

I supplemented the weight bit with heavy aerobic conditioning during the off days (bicycling and jump rope), though I was getting a wicked aerobic pump from a 6 day/week paddling routine. At the end of the whole cycle, my strength increased about 15%, my endurance about 30%, my body fat decreased 5%, my resting heartrate dropped to 50 bpm and I stayed exactly the same weight. The routine is a polecat to perform, but the results are amazing. During that first phase I wanted to quit many times. I just couldn't believe how hard it was!

 

One my "off" days I would usually do some leg presses and extensions, plus a little calf work after jumping rope. At the end of my "on" days I would crank some sit-ups and hyperextensions for 15 min. or so, long enough to cool down a little. If you need greater lower body strength, not obtainable via running or jump-rope work, you wont "enjoy" the off days and will instead spend them doing squats or whatever. If you do choose this route, bear in mind you are tackling a workload greater than that of most professional athletes. But, however you shake it, the important thing is the cycle of 30, 15, and 5 reps, followed by the peaking phase.

 

I personally don't go for supplements and amino acids and such, feeling the bulk of them end up in the toilet or shrubs. Good balanced vitals, a basic multi-vitamin, plus a little extra C seems to do the trick. I also tried to drink a couple of light beers an evening for no apparent reason at all!

 

The "WFH" is ideally suited for a climber as an off-season routine and will insure some big-league artillery once the clouds part and it's time to jump back on the crags.....Go after It !!!

[layton]

Guys,

Ask about exercise programs and you will get an infinite amount of diff exercises and opinions about how much/often to lift.

Here are some rules of thumb

1.exercise all your muscle groups at about 12-15 reps to maintain general fitness 2-3 sets.

2.find your weaklinks and do lifts of light weights with lots more reps

3.your important muscles for climbing and hiking are your upper body pulling in and down muscles. You lower are your pushing muscles (i.e. the muscles used in squats and toe raises)

4.to get stronger use a high enough weight that you fail in around 3 reps. do a lot of these (like 6 sets)

5.to get more endurance (this is the debated area) exercise more frequently and longer

6.to balance your body core exercises are CRITICAL. These msls are your Abs, adductors, hip flexors for your lower body, and your ext. rotators, lat flexors (your pushing up and out msls)

7.to train for your sport, the more you simulate it at extereme conditions, the better you will be. Try doing exercises that are climbing specific like HOLD YOUR LIFTS ISOMETRICALLY at the point of maximum resistance in a contraction.

8.Cardio? Go trail running or biking uphill for at least an hour. can't? get on something inside and go at least 65% of your max HR for 45 or more. The harder you push and longer you go the better. Too hard and too long lead to injury, but the bottom line is work the shit out of your heart. Your heart is the BOTTOM LINE when it comes to fitness.

 

How often? The more you go to the gym the better. twice a weak for weights, twice a week for cardio for improving fitness is the minimum.

 

does that help?

[JoshK]

And please don't turn this perfectly applicable thread into squabbling over whose team is better... college is about who offers the best education; not whose football team is best. If football was what matter then how do you explain all the people who would go to Harvard or MIT if given the chance (does MIT even have a football team?)? If you want to debate football, please go to rivals.com.

 

Screw football, I wouldn't go to MIT cause I dig girls , not tools.

[ashw_justin]

Yeah or Caltech: 75% male student body...

[toptimmy]

I tried lifting but the weights were just too heavy.

[jon]

Thanks for posting that Marty, a very interesting approach.

 

I'll go farther than what Layton said and say that your really have to develop an approach that works for you and that involves trial and error.

 

When developing a workout schedule there are really a lot of factors to take into consideration. These include what you are trying to accomplish, like do you have specific goals, weaknesses you are trying to strengthen, or just improve your overall fitness. Additionally you need to take into consideration things involving and affecting your recovery, like previously how well you recover from workouts, like do you recover quickly but need a lot of sleep to do it, are you an overcompensator, or do you find yourself trying to recover all week from a single workout regularly. Also things like how much time you are willing to sacrifice to recovery (I will explain this below), how much you work and how your workout could affect your job performance (if that is important to you ).

 

John Long's workout might work well for you and he definitely knows his shit. You also might have just as good results if not better with a structured workout doing half as much work. Personally I'm all about getting max results using the least amount of effort. I did a workout that was similar in duration this winter for my legs and increased my leg strength by over 30%. Taking into consideration that studies have found that the upper body increases in strength 50% faster than legs, my results were almost three times better than his, noting the obvious factors like he is really strong and near a plateau. The last thing I'm trying to do is beat my chest, I guess I'm trying to illustrate that beating the shit out yourself and feeling like shit for weeks or months on end isn't necessarily the right approach. I'm not saying I didn't work hard during my workouts, during one phase the sets were so hard I was about to cry after my last set, it was that physically and mentally exhausting.

 

Above I noted about what you are willing to sacrifice in the name of recovery. Recovery is the most important part of any physical activity, and it includes fluids, foods, and nutrients, as well as sleep. There are also two forms of recovery, active where you do a very light workout, or passive where you basically just sit on the couch. I think recovery is the most least emphasized things in working out, and it's more than drinking some meathead protein shake. By maximizing your bodies ability to recover from activity you will make bigger gains and be more physically prepared for your next workout, thus having a better workout and doing less cumulative damage. Now the sacrifice part. Let's say during the winter you are lifting three days a week, say MWF. By Friday your body is in need of some rest but you want to go skiing or whatever during the weekend. Do you go skiing or rest? Do you go ice climbing or rest? Do you go mountain biking or rest? This is the dilemma. If you do go out all weekend you come into your Monday workout not recovered and most likely not have a good workout and start putting your body into serious debt. So the choice is either focusing on getting serious results in the gym while sacrificing your weekend fun or only lift moderately and enjoy your weekend. You can try and have both but chances are you will reach serious burnout before you see results.

 

Personally I don't think the WFH includes enough recovery and I'm sure most people who work a normal 40 hour week and have a family or other responsibilities wouldn't make a notable gain from it. Just my opinion though.