Redpoint?

[texplorer]

So do you consider it a redpoint if you climb up, place gear, downclimb to the ground and rest up before going all the way to the top?

 

How about the same situation for an onsite?

 

Also, what about climbing another route and placing pro on it to protect a different climb?

[lummox]

yes. yes. and that would be a pinkpoint.

[Terminal_Gravity]

I'd have to say...

 

yes, no and pink

[dylan_taylor]

So do you consider it a redpoint if you climb up, place gear, downclimb to the ground and rest up before going all the way to the top?

 

How about the same situation for an onsite?

 

Also, what about climbing another route and placing pro on it to protect a different climb?

 

Seems like the onsite is blown once you've downclimbed to the ground. Most people might give you the credit if you could downclimb to a good rest - even a no-hands, before heading back up to fire it.

[Mer]

No, no and

 

maybe the first one is some shade between red and pink, a fushia-point, a raspberry-point, a blush-point--definately blushing and raspberries should be involved.

[Alex]

yes, no, pink.

 

You only get 1 chance at an "onsite" for a route, ever. If you climb a ways up, then retreat, you've effectivly rehersed it, no?

[sobo]

I'm with Alex on this one. But really, WTF does it matter - redpoint, pinkpoint, onsite, French free? What is all this shizzle anyway? Just fahq'n climb it, and have some fun ferchrissakes!

[lummox]

But really, WTF does it matter - redpoint, pinkpoint, onsite, French free? What is all this shizzle anyway?

for the sponsorship money you frigin mo-ron.

[Off_White]

I think the first one is definitely yes. You've climbed the route, without falls, without weighting the rope, and placing all gear yourself.

 

The second one I dunno, I've never given it much thought, since no one seems to give you many points for onsighting 5.10 I could be persuaded either way.

 

The third one goes into the strange territory of sport climbing, which as I belive has been discussed around here before, has generally discarded the category of pink point, and considers a climb of a route with pre-placed draws to be a redpoint. Climbing one route to pre-place protection for another is not much different than rapping down and clipping draws, though I'd think it's more fun.

 

In the big picture though, I think I just don't care. It might be a fun point to argue over a beer or six, but it doesn't have much impact on my life.

[snoboy]

yes, yes, pink.

 

dylan, what's the diff between a good rest and the ground, if you downclimb to it?

[thelawgoddess]

i agree with snoboy.

 

you can even fall or hang in the first scenario, downclimb or get lowered, do it all over again clean and it's still a redpoint.

 

go get you some! ;-)

[sobo]

But really, WTF does it matter - redpoint, pinkpoint, onsite, French free? What is all this shizzle anyway?

for the sponsorship money you frigin mo-ron.

 

Why is it that it's always the negative waves with you, man? Give peace a chance.

[lummox]

Why is it that it's always the negative waves with you, man? Give peace a chance.

its just sarcasm. kisses.

[dylan_taylor]

yes, yes, pink.

 

dylan, what's the diff between a good rest and the ground, if you downclimb to it?

 

yes, no, pink

 

Not that much, except that one is the ground (where you can lie around and have your belay slave massage your forearms) and the other is somewhere on the route. I admit, this stuff goes into gray territory sometimes. When Yuji Hiriyama onsighted sphinx crack in the south platte of colorado (solid 5.13), he climbed up to the roof where the sustained cruxyness is, he placed gear, clipped it, and downclimbed to a good rest. I can't remember if he was able to fenagle a "no-hands", but, knowing Yuji, he probably did. He was still well above the ground. He then shook out for a bit, returned to the crux, and sent it about as clean as can be. I give him credit for the onsight. Seems like everyone else does too. This is the first of many examples I can think of. For instance, I have gotten about 10 or 15 nohands rests on Caboose, in squamish. The thing is basically a flared chimney. I can't remember, but I might have downclimbed a move or two here or there. Did I botch the onsight? I led it clean, never hung, and what not. Things have changed since the old days of yo-yoing counting as a free ascent, but some people I know still consider that to be a valid ascent (albeit not an onsight). More power to them.

 

Where do you draw the line? Alex Huber might be able to rest on a hold I won't be able to touch if I train for the next ten years. If he downclimbs to an enormo-jug, is his onsight blown? Seems to me we ought to just draw the line at the ground and leave it be.

Edited April 3, 2004 by dylan_taylor

[Matt_Anderson]

1, Yes, 2, yes, 3, pink if its gear, don't differentiate between pink and red on sport).

 

For me onsighting is about taking what nature gave you, using it to your best advantage, and figuring out how to climb a route without using aid.

 

Beta from others has nothing to do with what nature gave you, so it is is aid. Using binoculars to look at a particular hold is also aid, because you are using mechanical (or something) means to enhance your sight. Rappelling to inspect the holds (or sneaking a peak as you lower off a nearby route) also gives you knowledge that you wouldn’t have unless the rope was holding you.

 

A fall ruins an onsight not so much because you fell, but rather because you used the rope as aid to allow you to rest so that you could pull the move on your eventual ascent (So yes, if you skittered off the hard low angle moves at the first set of anchors on thing fingers, landed on the big ledge there, but didn't weight the rope, you could still get the onsight).

 

Likewise, I think that if you can walk up the backside and look at holds from the top, it's still an onsight - you’re just being crafty. If you do the neighboring route, look at a particular hold, downclimb without weighting the rope, you are only using what nature gave you (and, again, being crafty). Similarly if you climb 3/4 of a route, feel a hold, downclimb all the way to the deep south, take a nap, and return later to climb the whole thing without weighting the rope or getting beta from others, it's still an onsight. (Bizarre, behavior, but still an onsight.).

 

For me, saying that the ground is “too good” of a no-hands rest is a contrivance (granted, all of these discussions are about contrivances . . . ) similar to declaring certain holds “off limit” outside. The rock gives you what it gives you. (Yes, I also think that if someone bolts a 5.14 sequence four feet away from a 5.6 and says that you need to ignore the holds on the 5.6, he has just created a second (shoddy) bolt job for the 5.6, not an independent 5.14).

 

This construct does work pretty well for roped climbing. It doesn’t work for bouldering and soloing, where falling just deposits you on the ground, but, I don’t boulder much and I stopped soloing so I’m fine with that.

[thelawgoddess]

dylan, what's the diff between a good rest and the ground, if you downclimb to it?

Not that much, except that one is the ground (where you can lie around and have your belay slave massage your forearms) and the other is somewhere on the route.

i'm sure that's not what snoboy (or anybody else) meant. i think we're all assuming you're not unroping and going to starbuck's for a quick latte before resuming the climb.

 

and besides, massages are definitely aid.

[sk]

no, no, pink

 

redpint you have to climb the whoe shizzle and place all the gear or draws on you red point atempt. sure work on it a gillion times before hand, but then ya gotta take it all down and start fresh to get a rewdpoint IMHO

 

on site is just that, ya walk up and climb up no falls no working no nothing just a clean climb.

 

if you can't lead a climb from the ground up then whats the point of claiming anything more than you were on it? I don't lead clean, I fall and flail and french free and work the shit out of the thing, but I suck and I know it. if you have to have the gear pre placed go back to school, work the climb some more. practice practice practice.

Edited April 4, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer

[thelawgoddess]

redpint you have to climb the whoe shizzle and place all the gear or draws on you red point atempt. sure work on it a gillion times before hand, but then ya gotta take it all down and start fresh to get a rewdpoint IMHO

from what i understand, you can fall and get lowered off as many times as you want, leave your gear, and if you still climb it clean that day it's a redpoint. am i wrong?

[RuMR]

its all semantics...

my answer

yes

yes

pink

 

The onsight is totally similar to a solo, imo,...ie, the rope and pro was never used...if someone walked up, tried to solo it, but backed down and came back on another day and climbed back up solo, it would still be a solo...it would also be onsight, as in he/she climbed up under there own power and investigated the route, onsight, never weighting anything except their own hands and feet...that is the definition of an onsight isn't it????

[sk]

acording to smith rock guide book a no fall lead is a red point, regaurdless of wether the draws (or gear) are pre-placed or not. I think that is pussy, but that is MY OPINION

[lummox]

I think that is pussy, but that is MY OPINION

too funny.

[thelawgoddess]

Pinkpoint

(1) A somewhat obsolete term used to describe a clean lead ascent clipping pre-placed gear.

(2) Unfortunately now commonly used in areas where balls are small to describe a redpoint. Most of the hardest routes in the world are only ever climbed pinkpoint.

[lancegranite]

How far do you take "No knowledge of the route"?

 

I say stare at it all you want, know the grade, but do not watch anyone climb the line or receive any beta.

[sk]

Pinkpoint

(1) A somewhat obsolete term used to describe a clean lead ascent clipping pre-placed gear.

(2) Unfortunately now commonly used in areas where balls are small to describe a redpoint. Most of the hardest routes in the world are only ever climbed pinkpoint.

isn't that what I said?

 

Pink point

 

To red-point a climb where the pro and runners have been pre-placed.

(d) Rotpunkt mit eingehängten Schlingen (Rotkreuz ???

 

 

Redpoint

 

To lead a climb without falling or dogging after a number of attempts. This is different from onsight, where the climb is lead without falling or dogging on its first attempt.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2004 by Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer

[thelawgoddess]

isn't that what I said?

that's what you said the book said. i was just sharing what i found to highlight the original difference between pink and red.

 

"Redpoint" Originally there was a distinction between a redpoint style of ascent, and a pinkpoint. The former was used where the leader placed any protection (such as the clips) whilst leading, and the latter was reserved for ascents where all the protection was in place. The latter style became the norm, and became known as a redpoint.