salbrecher Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I read Reinhold messner's book "the seventh grade" and he mentions he took cold showers to increase circulation to his hands and feet. Any body know if you can actually increase your bodies circulation by doing this? Is it physicly possible to acclimate your body like this? I started doing this the other day with hopes that one day my circulation will be as good as Messner's; all i achieved from it was nearly passing out and really, REALLY freezing my testicals off. Mark Twight's ginko and asprine are starting to look like better methods... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 the u.s. military did some tests with this. I will see if I can get the report. I believe it worked for them if I remember (they put their hands and feet in warm water in cold conds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 The only people I know who take cold showers like that are a couple of model friends of mine and they only do it to keep their breasts nice and perky. ... ... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Yes and no. I don't know how long you've been climbing, but if has been a few season, perhaps you've noticed that you can take/wear less and less on each trip? The generic term for this is biofeedback (at least that is the title under which I have read about/seen it). Its like the first time you ran a half marathon; you though you were going to die. The second time was a little easier and next thing you know that distance is trivial to you. Same with cold; you body 'learns' to deal with it. I would go into the science of it, but it is lengthy and advanced. As far as taking supplements yohimbe root has been shown to promote blood vessle growth. Twight I think covers this one along with everything else under the sun. National geographic had a good documentary on it awhile back about this Russian woman who swam and swam in progressively colder water until finally she set a record by doing a mile up near the north pole (the water temp was basically freezing when she did it). The doctor they had on the show talked about what would happen if you or I tried it without training for it (basically die in a few minutes), but she was able to do it by training. I also remember reading that Herman Buhl would run with snowballs in his hands to train. If you are truely hardcore, I guess you could start taking ice showers (and a million other things you could do to simulate alpine life... hell rent out a meatlocker). While we are on the subject, a good alternative I recommend is put on all your goretex and such (pack, etc.) and stand in the shower (cold or course) with the lights off and practive tying figure eights, etc. with mitts on. Good times and a learning experience! Something I try and do (besides climb a lot in the winter) is just run in the cold with not a lot on (usually shorts, shirt and beanie is all I take), it makes your body learn to conserve heat and makes you keep a faster pace as if you slow down you don't generate enough to stay warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 you might want to worry about shocking your system and getting sick if you do these suggestions. i'd call it your body "adapting" rather than "biofeedback" or some other fancy word. isn't biofeedback more like videotaping someone on a treadmill and anylizing the motions? lesson? the body adapts to what you throw at in Gradually. Try viagra. I'd have to say genetics plays the biggest role in this area. Also, repeated freezing thawing of your hands can induce Reynods or reynods like symptoms later on in life so protect those hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 I checked pace setters northwest web page (www.pacesetternw.com); the term they use to describe videotaping someone running is Videotaped Gait Analysis in which they "evaluate your rear foot kinematics to find the appropriate category of stability for you." Biofeedback? Kinematics? It probably really doesn't matter... I agree with Michael that adapting is probably the best layman term. Additionally, he raises some good cautionary points regarding the chance to get sick and gradually is generally the best ways to proceed with something (especially new forms of training... you don't run a marathon on your first try). I think the take home message is yes your body can gradually adapt to colder conditions. Obviously getting out there in it is always best, but a number of alternatives exist. Whichever one you choose to implement; do so gradually. And don't hesitate to solicit this page for suggestions and slander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Aspirin and garlic tablets have worked very well for me. I saw a program on the history channel about the Chosin battle in the Korean war. The battle was in the winter and many of the soldiers suffered severe cold weather injuries. One vet who was interviewed said he has never been able to sleep under blankets since, he gets too hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Mark Twight talked about a cold / hot shower cycle to flush something out of the muscless when you train. I don't remember if this is true. I believe it is the same function that some Olympic athletes do.....but I am not sure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Aspirin and garlic tablets have worked very well for me. Ditto for me. Also seems to help with altitude related problems. Regarding one of the above posters, I saw a dramatic improvement in the speed I completed my early morning run when I started wearing less. It's been my experience that it takes more work to get your heart rate up when your body is trying to keep warm. Run naked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyclimb Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 + Adrenaline Your circulation will be so f@#king high you will clear the passage ways indefinatly. I am calling it "osmosus circulation intiative", laymans terms beat your body to shit, and make it deal with the consequences In case your wondering I didn't read about that on jackmeoff.com, thats my own personal experience talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Mark Twight talked about a cold / hot shower cycle to flush something out of the muscless when you train. I don't remember if this is true. I believe it is the same function that some Olympic athletes do.....but I am not sure.... This doesn't really relate to cold adaptation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 I think a lot of it is mental. (until digits begin freezing off) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 When you say aspirin and garlic tablets; are you referring to daily dosage or only on climb days? I would disagree with aspirin on a daily basis. I'm not saying that it doesn't work (I couldn’t tell you), but it can have some long term effects on target organs (liver, kidneys, etc.) depending on your current health as well as genetics issues. I personally haven't seen any literature on aspirin and cold adaptation; bronco or danielpatricksmith: why and or where did you see that aspirin works? Or do you take it more for headache/muscle ache? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goslow Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 FYI: Biofeedback isn't your body adapting to new environments. Biofeedback is learning to gain volitional control over certain aspects of your autonomic nervous system (the part of the nervous system that usually functions automatically, i.e. blood vessel dilation, heart rate, digestion, etc). There are different techniques and technologies that help people learn to do this. It's used medically for lots of different things. Of interest to climbers would probably be that people have learned to dilate and/or constrict blood vessels in their extremeties, warming up surface temps. of one hand 5-10 degrees while the other stays a normal temperature, all w/out muscle contraction. But before all you alpine climbers get too excited, I think there are some limitations, one being that it requires being calm, meditative and relaxed...which is hard to do when you're gripped on a climb. Might be useful at a bivi though? If you're interested, I think it's technically considered part of psychophysiology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Niacin dosing helps increase circulation as well. I've used it with success in preparation for climbs in Alaska and Ecuador. I don't recall the actual dosage anymore but it involves taking Niacin on an empty stomach every day then just before heading into the cold environment, you take a large dose. Its a weird feeling. All the capillaries in your extremeties will dilate rapidly and you'll get a little red in the face but it only lasts a short time. This is based on my own personal experience and research from the web. I advise anyone thinking of doing this to do their own research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 When you say aspirin and garlic tablets; are you referring to daily dosage or only on climb days? I would disagree with aspirin on a daily basis. I'm not saying that it doesn't work (I couldn’t tell you), but it can have some long term effects on target organs (liver, kidneys, etc.) depending on your current health as well as genetics issues. I personally haven't seen any literature on aspirin and cold adaptation; bronco or danielpatricksmith: why and or where did you see that aspirin works? Or do you take it more for headache/muscle ache? In Gator's book on climbing Rainier, he suggests taking one asprin every 8 hours starting a day or two before the climb and continuing through the climb. Twight is suggests Garlic tablets for increasing circulation. I take them once per day just prior to and durring the climb. I don't know if it's mental or not but, I tend to stay warmer in the cold and experience less difficulty at altitude than most of my partners. Maybe it's because I'm just "stout". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 FYI: Biofeedback isn't your body adapting to new environments. Biofeedback is learning to gain volitional control over certain aspects of your autonomic nervous system (the part of the nervous system that usually functions automatically, i.e. blood vessel dilation, heart rate, digestion, etc). There are different techniques and technologies that help people learn to do this. It's used medically for lots of different things. Of interest to climbers would probably be that people have learned to dilate and/or constrict blood vessels in their extremeties, warming up surface temps. of one hand 5-10 degrees while the other stays a normal temperature, all w/out muscle contraction. But before all you alpine climbers get too excited, I think there are some limitations, one being that it requires being calm, meditative and relaxed...which is hard to do when you're gripped on a climb. Might be useful at a bivi though? If you're interested, I think it's technically considered part of psychophysiology. Yeah! That's what biofeedback is. thanks. I tried doing something similiar that i've learned from books on yoga philosophy. Called autogenic training (AT) where you associate a feeling such as warmth, calm, excited, etc...with repetively thinking of a phrase like, "my hands are warm, or I am calm, etc..." After enough practice you can controll parts of your Autonomic Nervous System to small degrees by thinking these phrases to yourself. I suppose one could take it further with the evidence learned from quantum mechanics that one could alter the world around them just by thinking in a certain way, but that's hard core Yogi Master Siddartha shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 I suppose one could take it further with the evidence learned from quantum mechanics that one could alter the world around them just by thinking in a certain way, but that's hard core Yogi Master Siddartha shit. What QM theory is that? Reference please! Unless you practice yoga/are familiar with it this next part is going to sound like a bunch of new age hippie shit, but the yoga thing works for me too. For me personally it's not so much telling my self that my hands are warm (when they aren't); more of promoting flow to all extremities. Turn your attention to the center of attention… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goslow Posted March 12, 2004 Share Posted March 12, 2004 ...this next part is going to sound like a bunch of new age hippie shit, but the yoga thing works for me too. For me personally it's not so much telling my self that my hands are warm (when they aren't); more of promoting flow to all extremities. Turn your attention to the center of attention… It's also all about classical and operant conditioning. I'm pretty sure there are good physiologic explanations for making control of basic autonomic functions a learned response. If it's framed in new age rubric, well that may help some and hinder others, but physiologically it's the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 The ANS is stimulated in part by horomones. By connecting a phrase with a feeling, your emotions trigger a release of horomones. So you basically trick your ANS into thinking something is happening to your body that isn't really occuring. EZ Example: Think about saliva. Are you salivating? I bet you are. EZ Example: Think about hot prana chix. Are you hard? I bet you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 oh and the quantum physics b.s. Matter is not substance but a probability of concepts. Therefor, if you only choose to observe the probability of one outcome (like you can levitate) then you can. but you need to believe 100% and almost no one can do that b/c we are so wired into seeing the probability or reality that makes sense to us. BTW, that was a "quantum" leap in conclusions and I don't necc believe it myself (which is why i don't levitate). But seriously, you can effect matter with conscious though - the uncertainty priciple comes to mind. Also look a climbing, mind over matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 You got a book, journal article, symposium date... something that mathematically links observation to event the way you described it? By no means am I a QM wiz and I do have much to learn. However, I do understand the concepts of probability and event as well as the limits of what one can observe about the event in question, but I have never heard that if you want to see something just look for it (assuming I interpreted that correctly). Wave-particle duality is one thing, but levitation? Nothing personal, but what you described sounds more like the half baked version of QM commonly cited by the likes of Magic the card game playing kids, philosophy professors, and touchy/feely art majors who only read the intro and part of ch. 1, but didn’t understand anything because they never took physics with calculus (or calculus for that matter). They just spit shit like “uncertainty principle” in hopes of not being passed over by yet another member of the female student population for an engineering student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 You got a book, journal article, symposium date... something that mathematically links observation to event the way you described it? By no means am I a QM wiz and I do have much to learn. However, I do understand the concepts of probability and event as well as the limits of what one can observe about the event in question, but I have never heard that if you want to see something just look for it (assuming I interpreted that correctly). Wave-particle duality is one thing, but levitation? Nothing personal, but what you described sounds more like the half baked version of QM commonly cited by the likes of Magic the card game playing kids, philosophy professors, and touchy/feely art majors who only read the intro and part of ch. 1, but didn’t understand anything because they never took physics with calculus (or calculus for that matter). They just spit shit like “uncertainty principle” in hopes of not being passed over by yet another member of the female student population for an engineering student. OK you called my bluff! Just seeing what i could get away with . it's all a bunch of horshit dancing wu li masters tao of physics art bell stoner talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double_E Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 can't believe no one's brought up saunas!! i think overall heat is more likely to increase circulation than cold... but the shock of going from extreme heat TO extreme cold is better than anything for increasing it. idunno, maybe it's just me. now with the intial cold shower or tub after the sauna, it think it maybe constricts the vessles some (and uh, other things too), but then right when you start to warm up (and for the long run) it increases circulation, bigtime. same goes for hot springs and hot tubs, especially soaking in when it's real cold out and then goin' for a walk in the chilly air. awww yeah. y'know in Finland, where the word sauna comes from, they go out and roll in the snow when they get tired of the heat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 14, 2004 Share Posted March 14, 2004 Heat will increase circulation for the immediate time, but will not for after you cool down. haven't you ever noticed that if you live in a cold environment, you don't get as cold as when you live in a hot environment? i seriously doubt any long term benefits from a sauna or hot tub. and the hot to cold shower thing is a great way to flush the system and relax muscles, but again, won't do jack in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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