icicle

[Crack]

a long time leavenworth resident/climber passed this on to me, thought it might be of interest/concern:

 

iciclevalley.org

[catbirdseat]

That's the group fighting the "Science Geeks" over the proposed underground laboratory.

[AlpineK]

That would be here Icicle tunnel

 

It sounds like it would fuck up the canyon for climbing at least for a few years.

[catbirdseat]

I don't think it would be a serious impediment to climbing. The only thing you would notice is when they buried the utility cables and of course trucks going back and forth on weekdays.

[Bug]

I don't think it would be a serious impediment to climbing. The only thing you would notice is when they buried the utility cables and of course trucks going back and forth on weekdays.

And the lack of water in Icicle creek.

[catbirdseat]

Explain

[JoshK]

Irregardless, isn't the icicle valley pretty scenic to be thinking about ripping it up for a lab? There are plenty of places in the southwest that probably fit the same characteristics needed, right?

[Bug]

Found this on the site Alpine posted:

Other NUSEL Sites

 

Gran Sasso region in Italy

 

In 1993 a highway tunnel and adjacent neutrino lab were dug through the Gran Sasso mountain range in central Italy. What was perhaps unanticipated is that the tunnel and lab act as a drain for the water table of the mountain. Ten workers were killed by the outpouring and the water table in the mountain was dramatically lowered by 800 meters, to the tunnel level. The tunnels empty 3050 liters of water per second from the mountain. Three rivers with their source on the mountain have reduced flows: the Tavo River by 70%, the Tinno River by 16% and the Enel River by 18%, as certified March, 1999 in a National Geologic Service report.

[setnei]

I think the issues they put forth on the site are pretty reasonable as to why sticking the lab up there isn't a good idea. With the risks to the water supply and the possible negative effects on tourism/economy/climbing for the next who-knows-how-long, it just doesn't sound like an optimal solution for anyone. There's got to be better places out there...

[JoshK]

More than anything, I think the value of undisturbed land is far greater than us knowning something else about neutrinos or whatnot. Understanding our universe is great and all, but I see a lot more benifit being able to walk through beautiful spots here on earth than to know how a black hole on the other side of the galaxy reacts when light enters it.

[To_The_Top]

There's got to be better places out there...

Why dont they use the old cascade rail tunnel at Stevens pass? They used to do these experiments there.

[telemarker]

Catbirdseat,

 

There's a helluva lot more to the Icicle than climbing. Apparently you've never been on the north side of Cashmere hiking in the fall amongst the golden larches and tundra. It's a pristine, beautiful area that would be spoiled by noise, trucks, tunnell boars, etc...

[catbirdseat]

Indeed I have. It is indeed a beautiful area.

 

I would point out that the geology is totally different in Italy than it is here. Many of the Italian mountains are dolomite and limestone which is like a giant sieve. Of course a tunnel through such mountains would affect the flow of water. Cashmere is a granite batholith. It has no water table. This is validated by the two cascade tunnels which did not result in alterations in water flow.

[J_Kirby]

Its not even really proposed for anywhere yet. The N.S.F. is still considering formal proposals from a number of states for where to put the thing. There are folks in Western South Dakota that are falling all over themselves to site the lab in a mine there. I say let 'em have the stupid thing and leave the Icicle alone.

 

8 years of deep tunneling in Mt. Cashmere?

[catbirdseat]

It may all be a huge bluff to force the N. Dakota legislature to change the liability laws and thus avoid the planned flooding of the existing facility. It would be best if they could stay right where they are, but the flooding if allowed to proceed will cause (if I recall correctly) $30 million in damage.

[JoshK]

I think the main issue here is there are plenty of "ugly" locations they could put this thing. It isn't worth ruining one of the most beautiful areas in the country.

 

Science is good when it helps, not when it sacrifices the quality of life on the planet we've got.

[J_Kirby]

Well put Josh.

[kurthicks]

I just found this link in the course of other internet searching. it appears to be from some UW "science geek." http://int.phys.washington.edu/NUSEL/leavenworth.pdf

 

I have no problem with the research, nor with an underground lab. I do, however, have a problem with the thought that it is acceptable to drill (permanently) under Federally designated wilderness areas for research that is supposed to only last 40 years. The laws governing mining and wilderness are complex; it seems that if UW/NUSEL needs to have an air vent within the wilderness (which i read somewhere) that it would be in violation of the Wilderness Act as it not within a current mining claim and, therefore, is subject to Wilderness Act regulations. That alone is enough to make the entire project illegal in my mind. Let alone the other potential effects on water/air quality and the human dimensions in the Icicle.

 

This issue goes way beyond how it will impact us as climbers ...

[Plinko]

I think the University of Washington Physical Science Dept. should be required to clean up their shit left over from their abandoned seismology tests midway in the old Cascade Tunnel. The first time I walked thu there was proly around 1988 or so, and the UW laser measuring of seismic activity had been concluded many years (10)previous, and I was appalled at how much trash they just up and left behind. Science is good and all, but come on! When they make claims that eh environment will not be affected, just point to the point to the tunnel and say clean up yer shit from 30 years ago first.

[Plinko]

I think the University of Washington Physical Science Dept. should be required to clean up their shit left over from their abandoned seismology tests midway in the old Cascade Tunnel. The first time I walked thu there was proly around 1988 or so, and the UW laser measuring of seismic activity had been concluded many years (10)previous, and I was appalled at how much trash they just up and left behind. Science is good and all, but come on! When they make claims that the environment will not be affected, just point to the point to the tunnel and say clean up yer shit from 30 years ago first.

 

 

Someone saw this post and word got back to people at UW, and I received an email this week from Wick Haxton, Director, INT at University of Washington. He detailed how the university thought the Forest Service would take care of it, and the Forest Service thought the University would take care of it, so it never got done. Mr. Haxton has found a lot of relevant documents about the history/cleanup (lack thereof) regarding the university's experiments. It appears that in Feb 2005 he's arraigning a walk-through with the Forest Service to get an idea of what needs to be done. So cc.com may be good for something after all (aside from all the spray) In case anyone's interested, I'll post updates here in the months that follow. Stay tuned....

 

[Dru]

Indeed I have. It is indeed a beautiful area.

 

I would point out that the geology is totally different in Italy than it is here. Many of the Italian mountains are dolomite and limestone which is like a giant sieve. Of course a tunnel through such mountains would affect the flow of water. Cashmere is a granite batholith. It has no water table. This is validated by the two cascade tunnels which did not result in alterations in water flow.

 

Dude stick to chemistry. Your mangled description of karstic hydrogeology gets a B- but you fail on the other half. Granitic rocks can make excellent aquifers, just look at the slime draining out of cracks at Squamish or Index. It is just that the hydraulic conductivity of granite is about 5 to 10 orders of magnitude lower than for karstic limestone.

[larrythellama]

i like how cbs only sees the truck traffic as a weekday issue. there are some of us who do not work during the week and rather enjoy the solitude of the weekday canyon.

 

anyways, i doubt my life will improve in anyone directly by the tunnel or the experiements that would come out of it. i can only see longterm adverse affects for me and my family.

[Ade]

I agree that building the experiment in the Icicle is a poor choice and there seem to be lots of other big ugly holes in the ground elsewhere which could be used. It also seems that they're going against the spirit of not the letter of the Wilderness Act to build it.

 

However. Those of you who say "why do I care about Neutrinos and such" and "it's not going to improve my life" should consider how fundamental science is ultimately a building block for everyday technology.

[Dru]

maybe they will be able to observe neutrinos on the girth pillar too!

[Jopa]

i like how cbs only sees the truck traffic as a weekday issue.

 

i posted this in another thread, but it's not a weekday issue. According to Wick, the road will have to be upgraded between mile markers 4 and 9, which happens to be where a lot of the cragging is located. During the road upgrade one lane will be closed at all times (including weekends) so delays should be expected. The digging of the tunnel and rock excavation (via trucks) will take an estimated 3 years (3 years was his estimate, but he said it assumed no major complications). The trucks will operate 7 days per week.