MrDoolittle Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I figured I start this thread in spray.... Rappelling is dangerous. WAY more dangerous than any other climbing related activity, even free-soloing, IMHO. Double-check your anchor. Double-check your harness. Double-check your belay device. Double-check the condition of the rope. Double-check that the rope is fed properly through the anchor. Double-check that the rope is fed properly through your belay device. DOUBLE-CHECK YOUR PARTNER!!! Double-check everything again. Say goodbye to your freinds and loved ones and start rappelling. IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT BOTH ENDS OF THE ROPES ARE TOUCHING THE GROUND, DO NOT RAPPEL UNLESS YOU HAVE KNOTS TIED IN THE END OF EACH ROPE!!!! IF YOU ARE THE LEAST BIT UNSURE AS TO WHETHER THE ROPE ENDS ARE EVEN, DO NOT RAPPEL!!!! Bring the ropes up, make sure they are even, and try again. If you are unsure as to whether you can maintain control of your descent, learn how to attach and use a back-up. If you choose to ignore ANY of the above guidelines, you may deck. If you choose to obey ALL of the above guidelines, you STILL may deck. The main lesson: DON'T RAPPEL. And if you do, DON'T FUCK UP. -J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Sounds like this may be coming from experience. Do you have a story to tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgersling Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Someone just got killed rapping. Keep up. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/318580/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1 MCTFAF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badvoodoo Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I just recently learned to rappel, and I must say, when I was tearing down and getting ready to push off, I made damn sure I took my time and checked everything over. Hanging your ass over +60' of nothin is great motivation for doing things right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 IF YOU CANNOT SEE THAT BOTH ENDS OF THE ROPES ARE TOUCHING THE GROUND, DO NOT RAPPEL UNLESS YOU HAVE KNOTS TIED IN THE END OF EACH ROPE!!!! IF YOU ARE THE LEAST BIT UNSURE AS TO WHETHER THE ROPE ENDS ARE EVEN, DO NOT RAPPEL!!!! What about tieing the rope ends together? That makes sure they are even. Plus, separate knots on each rope end could possibly squirm through your rap device. If you are going to be all extra safe and stuff, then you might do this step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Unfortunately, like learning to drive, the initial sheer terror of leaning out over the edge of a precipice hanging off a string of plastic dulls with repetition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 b/c i am paranoid of rappelling, i have taken to adding one probably unnecessary step to the procedure but it makes me feel better. at the anchors, i will use one sling or daisy chain clipped to the anchor that isn't bearing my weight while i'm cleaning. i clean the anchors, set up my rap, weight the anchor and rope with the longer sling still attached to the anchor. once i've weighted the system, then i'll remove this last piece of personal protection and rap. this isn't always possible, or even necessary. but if i'm feeling at all worried about my rappell i've started doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Minx, Your procedure is a good one. I try to do it at all rapells, not just the ones I am feeling squirrelly about. Like Iain said, most people stop being scared about rapping, but that doesn't make it less dangerous. Sounds like your/our procedure wouldn't have made any difference on the Vantage accident though . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I have tied the ends of the rope together on a couple of rappels but these were only for descents where the rock was smooth. By tying the two ends together you are essentially creating a loop. If you have to pull the rope back up for some reason and the loop snags on something, then you've got a problem to deal with. Just tie a knot in each end. It does the same job as tying both ends together: to save you from falling off the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 If you get into a routine of double-checking everything, weighting and testing the rap line before you unclip from the anchor, and making sure the ends are down or tied, you will ingrain good habits in yourself that may make rappelling safer. Your spidey-sense may alert you if you skip a step in this routine, even after you've gotten over the fear of rappelling. It took me about half an hour to rappel from the top of a climb for the first time (at Smith on a busy day, no less). I think I rechecked everything about ten times. Lowering off the chains, to me, is even more dangerous, since there are two people who can screw up. For that reason, and because I never practice it and don't have a developed routine, I never get lowered off the chains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 First of all Klenke, wasted word alert, you create a loop, there is no "essentially" necessary there. Second, if you put knots in the ends of the rope you also may end up with snagging problems. Also, a bit of complacency can end up snagging a forgotten knot in the anchors above (which won't be a problem with tying the ends together). Though you make a good point (about the loop), I'm looking at this thread and Mr. Doo' is basically saying, "be extra extra careful". So, in that vein, I added my extra extra careful tip. One of those little knots could easily squirm through your device. You'd be surprised how easily, especially if the ropes are wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 An autoblock below the belay device will help prevent rappel errors. See Freedom 7 for more details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 An autoblock below the belay device will help prevent rappel errors. See Freedom 7 for more details. To restate the obvious: an autoblock is great for keeping control of the rope, but it doesn't obviate the need to double-check the ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Move this thread to Climbers Forum! Hey, has that ever happened before? Usually it goes the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I was sort of just kidding. There's got to be a first time for everything. Dr. Doo, pat yourself on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromage Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I have tied the ends of the rope together on a couple of rappels but these were only for descents where the rock was smooth. By tying the two ends together you are essentially creating a loop. If you have to pull the rope back up for some reason and the loop snags on something, then you've got a problem to deal with. Just tie a knot in each end. It does the same job as tying both ends together: to save you from falling off the end. Another problem I had once rapping on ropes with ends tied together was that of the rope kinking. Since my tubby ass tips the scales at >200 pounds with gear on, my weight on the rope causes the coils in the core to unwind. If the ends of the rope are not free two twist and untwist (i.e. tied together), it creates a clusterfuck. You end up with a pile of spaghetti in your lap. Putting a double fisherman's in the end of each rope allows the ends of the rope to twist when the core strands uncoil, and good luck trying to get those knots through a tube-style rap device. You might be able to do it with a figure-8 style device, but if you have some sort of rappel backup in your system then you stay in the gene pool for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Good point about the kinking. So if you a vasectomy, or have gone through menopause, are you no longer in the gene pool? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Good thread! And here I thought I was the only one who got sketched while rapping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fejas Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Rappeling more dangerous than free-solo? So you don't trust the anchore that is set up nice and easy or that is fixed with two or more bolts, but you trust a sinlge bolt or single cam/nut for a 10+ ft whipper... Tie off some webbing and let er ripp! I understand the whole running outa rope, but isn't that something you should think about before climbing rather than before rappeling? And if your rappeling somtin you didn't just climb up, don't most of ya carry two ropes anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 An autoblock is an excellent way to back things up. If for some reason you don't notice that you've only threaded one strand, an autoblock can save your ass because the other strand won't pull through. I used to do an autoblock about ten percent of the time. Now I do it almost habitually. The more your out there and the more comfortable you are with rappelling, the more likely it is that you're going to make a mistake. Honestly, I think less beginners get hurt or killed on rappel than people with experience who are in a rush. Adding a simple thing like an autoblock is totally worth it for a little extra protection. As far as knots in the end of the rope go, don't tie the ropes together. Tie a knot in either end of the rope, then things don't get so wrapped up. The most important aspect of this is to make sure that you untie the knots before you pull the rope. The biggest problem with tying knots in the end of the rope is generally an overly ambitious partner who doesn't pay attention to them and starts pulling the rope before the knots are out. One way to ensure that you are tied into your rappel correctly is to use an extender or a "pre-rig." Essentially you girth hitch a shoulder length sling through your harness and then place your atc at the other end. Both people can set this up at the same time and check one another before a single climber rappels. The redundancy of checking one another can help eliminate extra danger. I almost exclusively rappel off extended rappel devices. I usually don't rant about things, but I'm about to: LOWERING OFF CHAINS IS BAD!!!! Never lower off chains. Ever. There are a couple of problems with this. First, most chains which are placed in climbing areas were not designed for climbers to climb on. The weight of a climber lowering on chains slowly cuts them. Eventually the bottom link becomes useless. Rappelling off chains and then pulling the rope does not have this effect. It is far better to place carabiners through the bolts for your top-rope and then to simply rappel when you are finished. Locals in most climbing areas end up footing the bill for new chains or chain links. This may not sound like it's that big a deal, but it is. In a large climbing area there are thousands of climbs where this is happening and local climbing organizations and individuals seldom have the resources to fix this problem. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 i wouldn't tie the ends of the rope unless I was sure I could unstick them if they jammed below. Put an autoblock on instead and pay attention to the rope as well as looking around for an anchor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 this is probably the lamest reason not to lower of chains... i hate to do it b/c i always worry if i've tied back in properly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Jason, great post. This is the first I have heard of your system in which both climbers clip in for rappel at the same time on extended rappel devices. Interesting concept. Anyone else ever do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 this is probably the lamest reason not to lower of chains... i hate to do it b/c i always worry if i've tied back in properly! Not lame, this is a valid concern. What you can do is tie in through the chains with a sling as a back up. Tell your belayer to Take! and weight the rope. If everything looks good, unclip the sling and lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 I use jason's extened rappel system w/an autoblock below it. I keep my autoblock cord girthed several times around my leg loops on my harness so it's always handy. Make sure to premeasure the legnth before you need it. It's much better to place the autoblock below your rappel device so your hand is always on the brake side and your other hand is free to fuck with ropes and gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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