How do you clip your belay biner to your harness?

[Dru]

[thelawgoddess]

I wonder why they call it a belay loop, anyway?

i definitely use the loop. why waste gear?

[sobo]

Everyone I know who has yet to reproduce and wishes to retain the capacity to do so has sworn off all of the variations of BD's "Bod" harness for ever.

 

Ya know, I just don't know where people come up with this crap. I have three climbing harnesses (I had four, but I gave the "size Small" to the wife - I'm getting old and fat).

All are BD Bods of one variation or another, to wit:

 

1. Medium BD Bod with padded waistbelt for sport and summer trad climbing (when you aren't wearing a shirt or jacket - keeps the belt from chafing).

 

2. Large (unpadded) Alpine Bod (so it fits over extra clothing layers) for alpine climbing and glacier slogs. Stripped down to just the harness itself and the gear loops.

 

3. Large (unpadded) Alpine Bod for ice climbing (so you can put it on over jackets, shells, bibs, etc.). I added ice tool holsters and Trango spring-clippy-thingies for racking screws. I leave this one "as-is" because it just became too much of a PITA to remove and put back on the holsters and screw racks between climbing seasons. So I bought #2, above.

 

ANYWAY, I have never had the problem that so many folks infer by their stated fears about the Bod. That's just all BS. Mebbe if you hang-dog on sport routes all day it could become, shall we say, unpleasant. But if you climb decently, and when you fall you get back on the rock instead of resting on the rope, there is no problem with these harnesses. It won't squash your balls unless you're seriously weighting it, so just don't weight it heavily, at least not for long periods of time.

 

Oh, and BTW, SOMEBODY must be doing something right with these harnesses because Yvon seems to keep on making them!

 

Now, if you wanna talk about a real ball-crusher, try out a Whillans Sit Harness (if you can still find one). That was my first harness years ago, and I used it for all of about 2 climbs before switching to the Bods. Never looked back.

 

[mvs]

I agree, the bod is a great harness. But I do something that will get me flamed. My older model doesn't have a belay loop, so I use a locking biner to hold it together, and I attach my locking belay or rappel biner to that one. I really like this system, but it's open to charges of cross loading...

[sobo]

mvs,

None of the Bods have a belay loop. None of them ever did. Use the locking biner to hold the crotch loop to the waistbelt as you currently must do, but stop right there. Insert your belay device/rappel device into the solo locking biner and... voila'! Good to go.

 

I'm curious. Why would you add the second biner to your set-up? Are you trying to achieve a 90* rotation to your device(s) for some reason?

[JayB]

Must have touched a nerve there, eh? No pun intended.

 

Just a lot of harnesses out there that keep the leg loops a healthier distance away from the nards IMO. Hanging belays, lowering a heavy partner, catching a fall, taking a fall - all uncomfortable for some of us in this sort of harness. I will say this for the Bod style harnesses - they inspired a few of us to cling to the rock with a tenacity that a simple desire to lead a route cleanly could never have inspired - so perhaps there were some benefits to this design.

 

However - you sired a child recently, no? You are walking proof that my reservations about this harness aren't entirely well founded.

 

All the best to you and your unruptured nards,

[mattp]

The simplicity and ease of putting on/off of the bod harnesses is great, and many of them come without any padded waist or gear loops, so they are good when worn in conjunction with a pack. I like a lightweight "bod" type harness for general mountaineering, where I don't plan on spending much hang time, but I pretty much always use something else for rock climbing.

[sobo]

...However - you sired a child recently, no? You are walking proof that my reservations about this harness aren't entirely well founded.

 

All the best to you and your unruptured nards,

 

JayB,

Well, not exactly. My wife got pregnant twice (yes, by me, trask ), but she miscarried twice as well. We adopted our little baby boy from Vietnam after all the miscarriage shenanigans had settled down. But I would guess that I'm still "walking proof" even if my wife didn't carry to full term.

[sobo]

The simplicity and ease of putting on/off of the bod harnesses is great, and many of them come without any padded waist or gear loops, so they are good when worn in conjunction with a pack. I like a lightweight "bod" type harness for general mountaineering, where I don't plan on spending much hang time, but I pretty much always use something else for rock climbing.

 

Another nice thing about the Bods is they make it pretty easy to take a dump en route. Just undo the Fastex buckles on the leg loops, drop trou, and fire away.

 

No undoing the waistbelt/crotch loop, and definitely no dropping the entire harness to get the leg loops down around your knees or ankles like some other harnesses require you to do.

[chris]

oops

Edited February 6, 2004 by mtnfreak

[chris]

Historically (maybe some of the old farts can chime in), when manufactured harness were introduced you often bought leg loops seperate from the waist belt to get a more "custom" fit. Back then, the belay loop was simply a short sling to conect the two - hence the tradition of clipping into each seperately.

Nowadays (like for the last 15+ years), the belay loop has been beefed up. Take a look. That belay loop is actually a double layered loop, and the stiching goes through three layers of fabric (at least on mine). Each one of those bar tacks, I'm told, is worth more than 250lbs of force.

So the belay loop could very well withstand more force than a human body.

For me, I still tie in through the waist and the leg loops seperately, but then belay and rappel off of the belay loop. This keep the belay device (an ATC) in line with the direction of travel/direction of rappel.

[daler]

newer bods do have a belay loop!!! Use it. Older bods without were made to be used in situations where "real" falls are not common i.e glacer travel, moderate alpine climbing etc.... Sure they work just fine for any kind of climbing but why not use the gear the for its intended use.

[Thinker]

(damn, I took too long composing the rest of my post and Daler beat me to the punch!)

 

sobo said:

None of the Bods have a belay loop. None of them ever did.

 

and I'm just REALLY good with Photoshop.....

 

 

(It may be safer to say none of the Alpine Bods have a belay loop, or ever did..... but I haven't done the research to know for sure.)

 

 

But seriously, I found when I bought a harness with a belay loop for the very first time, the LARGE lockers I'd been using with my BD Bod did tend to want to crossload much more than before. I found that the screwgates of the BD Airlocks http://www.bdel.com/images/gear/rock/detail/airlock2.jpg protruded enough that they would catch on the belay loops, spinning the biner into a crossloaded position. (Seems all the extra 'slack' in the belay loop allows the belay biner to dance all over the place.) Needless to say, this really bothered me.

 

I found 2 solutions: 1)I replaced my Airlock with a belaymaster, which is a great product, but has a high futz factor on multipitch routes.

 

2) I replaced the Belaymaster with a MUCH smaller BD Enduro screwgate, which seems not to get caught up on the belay loop like the old Airlock. I've had such good results with this that I haven't broken out the Belaymaster for quite some time now.

 

In addition, as noted on the 'cord for personal anchor' thread recently, when using a belay loop, I also clip my belay biner into my Fig8 loop where it's tied into my harness.....for a little redundancy (I clip my biner thru both the belay loop and the loop of rope). I figure that as long as it (the rope) is there, I might as well use it. CBS noted that he often clips his belay biner into the Fig8 loop alone on his Bod without a belay loop, using the rope as a belay loop. (at least I THINK that's what he meant.)

[catbirdseat]

CBS noted that he often clips his belay biner into the Fig8 loop alone on his Bod without a belay loop, using the rope as a belay loop. (at least I THINK that's what he meant.)

No that's not right. The biner is goes through both the waist and seat in addition to the figure eight loop. Yes it's a lot of stuff, but I use a large parabiner. It would be wrong to use a figure eight as a surrogate for a belay device, because the knot isn't suited to take loads across the loop like that.

[cluck]

The attachment method I use varies with the situation. When belaying at a crag I usually use the loop because it keeps things separated, away from the body, and I don't mind moving the biner to and from my gear loops all the time. It does put a half twist in the rope though which I find mildly annoying.

 

When alpine or multipitch climbing, I tend to clip through both the leg loop and waist loop. This way I don't have to constantly be moving the biner to and from my gear loops (which already have tons of crap hanging from them) and I don't get thumped in the nards when I'm climbing. This way also keeps the biner in position to easily clip/unclip prussiks.

[cracked]

I've used a Bod for five years. Sport, trad, alpine, glacier walking, etc. A great all-around harness. Maybe not quite as comfy as others, but claiming that it makes hanging belays and the like miserable is not true. And my 'boys' have never been squashed. YMMV.

[catbirdseat]

Ever accidentally forget to fasten the leg straps on a bod harness? Believe me, it's a mistake you will only make once, and I don't mean because it could kill you, but because you'll live.

[sobo]

newer bods do have a belay loop!!! Use it. Older bods without were made to be used in situations where "real" falls are not common i.e glacer travel, moderate alpine climbing etc.... Sure they work just fine for any kind of climbing but why not use the gear the for its intended use.

 

I stand humbly corrected. I wasn't aware that newer Bods came w/belay loops. Now I am. Carry on.

[mtngrrrl]

Anyone climbing in one of those "way old harnesses" should probably think about an upgrade. Harnesses don't last forever, especially if you're climbing outside a lot. I climbed in a bod for 10 years (stupidly) before finally getting a new-fangled belay-loop harness. FYI, the BD site has info on the tie-in & rap/belay setup for harnesses with and without belay loops. They say (you guessed it!) tie in to leg loop and waist belt; clip biner to belay/rappel loop. Petzl says the same.

 

If you Google "belay loop" you find the debate goes on and on and on. The AMGA says use the loop. But even a BD harness designer says use either. Sheesh.

 

I'm with Fern. RTFM. Use the loop if you've got it.

[Alyosha]

The blurb by the Black Diamond guy was actually quite informative (for me, anyways). Thanks for pointing me to it. Also, thanks to everyone who posted to date. It was nice to hear some arguments pro and con besides "my friends do it that way."

[pindude]

Anyone climbing in one of those "way old harnesses" should probably think about an upgrade. Harnesses don't last forever, especially if you're climbing outside a lot. I climbed in a bod for 10 years (stupidly) before finally getting a new-fangled belay-loop harness. FYI, the BD site has info on the tie-in & rap/belay setup for harnesses with and without belay loops. They say (you guessed it!) tie in to leg loop and waist belt; clip biner to belay/rappel loop. Petzl says the same.

 

If you Google "belay loop" you find the debate goes on and on and on. The AMGA says use the loop. But even a BD harness designer says use either. Sheesh.

 

I'm with Fern. RTFM. Use the loop if you've got it.

 

Finally clicked on this thread; can't believe there's so much discussion about something I thought had become pretty well standardized by now.

 

The BD Designer comment, even though it was made by credible Chris Harmston (who has since moved on), was from 1995, a whole 9 years ago. Current are your 2 references at the BD and AMGA websites.

 

Bottom line: Belay biner can cross-load when passed through the swami belt and leg loops, and obviously should be attached just at the belay loop, for both belaying and rapping. And when belaying a lead climber, it is best to pass your belay biner through both the belay loop AND the rope you are tied into with your partner.

[David_Parker]

I used to use the Alpine Bod but I hated it because it didn't have a belay loop. In winter with the extra clothes, it was a PITA to see what was going on down there and basically it was a cluster fuck, especially with double ropes tied in. All-in-all, i felt that it was a dangerous situation in that more could go wrong messing around at rappells and such. I considered adding a Belay loop by having Metolius or BD sew one on and then always threading the waist loop through, but I just bought a new harness for ice climbing. I'd still use the bod for an alpine climb but I don't have the lightweght version so I don't. It's nice to have a spare though for friends or newbies to use. I like the belay loop for rapping too as it gets it out away a litle more and so I can see what's going on and control things better.

[dylan_taylor]

The alpine bod still kicks ass for ski mountaineering and regular old glacier travel - times when you aren't likely to endure too many uncomfortable belay sessions anyway. When I see people using a harness for the first time, and it happens to be bod style, I just point out that its important to pick which side you want your break hand to be on, otherwise there is some rope twisting. The nice thing about using the belay loop on the rest of those harnesses, rather than clipping through the tie in points, is that the belay is ambidextrous. The rope to the climber goes up, and the rope to the brake hand goes down. Choose brake hand as you wish.

[catbirdseat]

I agree that without the belay loop when you are wearing a lot of clothes, especially a big parka, you can't see what's going on down there.

[RuMR]

Of course, always tie in through the waist/crotch loop combo though, because these points are reinforced to take the wear and tear of the rope abrasion.

As a creature of habit, I always tied in the same way -- that being consistently to the same side of the belay loop. Had I alternated which side of the belay loop I tied in through, I probably wouldn't have a harness that was theadbare on one side of the belay loop and pristine on the other.

 

Kinda like rotating your tires.

 

Hey Jas...i wrap a loop of duct tape over that point on the leg loops...kinda like hardfacing on a bulldozer blade...sacrificial material...harnesses last a LOT longer...

 

Funny comment "why do they call it a belay loop!?"