Restoration

[halfpint]

I think that scottharpell misunderstands me. I in no way condone or advocate bolting cracks- I also do not condone retrobolting bold trad leads. I have a number of 'R' and 'X' first ascents where I am from. I have also repeated quite a few of the others. I have pulled retro bolts out at one of the crags in which someone was trying to ease the runouts on some 25 year old classics and some newer lines. If I learned that any of the above mentioned routes had/have been bolted I would pay one of my friends or fly back there myself to pull the bolts.---- retrosaurus and willstrickland-come on guys-who said anything aboout squeeze jobs and filling up the crags to disperse the crowds? you guys are cute. Do any of the lines you are talking about really need to be done? give it a freaking rest! You argue to see your own print.----

[rayborbon]

Ok Jon,

 

Bring your tools out to the crag. I'll be out climbing instead. Or taking photos of naked lesbians or something.

 

I guess I dont know the meaning of hard labor according to you though

 

Oh well.

[allthumbs]

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[ 04-19-2002, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: trask ]

[pope]

Now I know what I want Santa to bring me!

[scott_harpell]

sorry for the misunderstanding halfpint, just a touchy subject. no hard feelins....

[Peter_Puget]

Pope:

 

Pope Quote:”The validity of a top-rope is hardly an original idea of yours or mine, although if you're short on original thoughts, you're welcome to take credit. Contacting a retro-bolter to establish a dialogue? Oddly enough, I attempted to do this within one week of my first anti-bolt post. I'm pretty sure this happened before you "published" your brilliant ideas one year ago.”

 

I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. Now you have agreed with my suggestions: [insert quote] “restoration should be performed without making a spectacle.” I advocated that long ago. Sadly I see your ranting continues, thus adding a significant element of “spectacle” to the affair. While you now give it lip service your vanity keeps you spewing. For example, long ago in the DDD debacle you contacted the villain then when he proceeded to ignore your wishes you brought the matter up publicly and created a situation where you encouraged others to chop the bolts. I agreed then and still believe that they should have been removed. I thought that the insults related to it and your chicken shit manner of slamming your friend while keeping his name secret and of getting others to do the dirty work were/are spectacularly inflammatory. I suggested that someone just remove the bolts with little fan fair. Certainly that would have given a message to the bolters and not subjected everyone (including those already antagonistic towards climbing) to a public shit fest. A simple post simply stating the removal and reasoning would have been preferred over the spew. More examples of spectacle making are available by simply searching on your ID#.

 

Pope Quote;”Christ, this was not going to be another thread in which I argued about bolting, access, etc. Just a question or two, Mr. P.P. Firstly, how can you hope to extend equal access to all climbers? Doesn't climbing limit access to some groups by its very nature? What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? Also, how does putting bolts into an established TR make it more accessible to anybody? Finally, where do aesthetics fit into your equation?”

 

Peter Quote: “The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.”

 

After reading your comments regarding equal access I first thought “what the hell did I write.” Upon reviewing my post I can see that you have simply created something out of thin air. Clearly I never suggested equal access. So I will only suggest that you must have been very tired when you wrote your comments regarding equal access. My guess is that over the last year I have removed more “offensive” bolts than you, Ray, Will or even Mitch. I choose to do so in a discrete manner. Your response as quoted above is simply sophomoric chatter.

 

Pope Quote “One more thing: where do you get your information about Pope's hardest sport lead? My hardest clip-up was said to be 5.12b/c, this being accomplished without aid or falls on my first attempt. I haven't attempted anything harder, although I "flashed" 5.12d (Equinox, Joshua Tree) on TR (felt about as scary as sport climbing).”

 

Actually as far as the rating I was poking fun at you as several times you have mentioned your hardest sport lead and the last time (actually the time before this last time!) claimed it was the first and last time you would do so. I thought you must be seeking some acknowledgement. By the way my ascent was a real no hang, place your pro, first time kinda thing. By the way congrats on Equinox you must have lady fingers.

 

Cheers,

PP

[freeclimb9]

If you're going to place a bolt, if possible, use a 5-piece one. A 5-piece bolt is easier to remove with much less damage to the rock (essentially none save for the hole --removal may be warranted due to age also.

[Peter_Puget]

Peter Puget,

you're coming from such a foreign paradigm, I can't relate at all.

But thanks for the definition of edify. And to think that I had equated "enlighten" with "To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge." I think I'll have to get another edition of Webster's dictionary because the one I got has "edify" and "enlighten" as synonyms.

 

Main Entry: syn·o·nym javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym')

Pronunciation: 'si-n&-"nim

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synOnymon, from neuter of synOnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name -- more at NAME

Date: 15th century

1 : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses

 

Clearly considering two synonyms as always interchangeable is wrong.

 

But in any event I wasn’t disputing your use of enlighten. What I do dispute is that there is something enlightening inherent in climbing. While you may feel you have had enlightening experiences while climbing, it is simply your experience. Hopefully you have a great time climbing but your experience is yours alone. Others may climb the same route and experience nothing even close to enlightenment.

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

...What I do dispute is that there is something enlightening inherent in climbing...

---

You are in the dark. Maybe there is nothing enlightening inherent in your style of climbing.

 

Use the force, peter.

Beware the dark side.

May the force be with you.

 

And if that doesn't work, I have a 5 1/2 foot pry bar:

MAY I FORCE IT WITHIN YOU.

 

[ 04-19-2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Retrosaurus ]

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism.

PP

---

And this is not taking credit for the suggestion about the validity of TR ascents?

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. PP

---

Again, check your calendar. I was contacting retrobolters before you promoted this.

 

Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.

 

PP

 

Underlying this is the assumption that a “poorly” bolted route is one with too few bolts. Assuming this is true, your quote implies that such a route then will be enjoyed by a more exclusive group, that a more diverse group will somehow be unable to enjoy it. Therein lies your call for equal access. I apologize for putting you through these mental gymnastics. I assumed YOU wouldn’t be reading late at night.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead.

PP

---

It was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap. Peter, this isn’t your original and clever line either, I’m afraid.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Pope:

 

My guess is that over the last year I have removed more “offensive” bolts than you, Ray, Will or even Mitch. I choose to do so in a discrete manner.

PP

---

My guess is this about the third time you've reminded us that you too are a bolt chopper and a boy with trad routes. I have been on only one restorative mission so far and I haven't said anything about it on this message board. So, who's making a spectacle now?

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Pope:

 

By the way congrats on Equinox you must have lady fingers.

 

Cheers,

PP

---

Am I supposed to take that as a compliment? Peter, let's call the whole thing off. I don't have time to continually defend myself from your sophomoric stick-and-stone throwing. Why do you keep trying to get into my pants? (Dwayner has the same question)

 

P.S. I ran into one of the DDD bolters this month. We had a nice chat, and I didn't get the impression he was overly angry with me. He probably read on this site how I criticized the original DDD restoration spectacle for being a little too sassy. He probably noticed that I reminded everybody that he and his partner are a couple of studs and deserve respect even though they made a poor choice. He might have even noticed when you called me a hypocrite for denouncing the DDD retrobolting while promising not to chop it since those guys are my buddies.

 

Love ya babe. Mean it.

[Peter_Puget]

Pope – You scoundrel you have mixed posts and selectively edited my comments!

 

Pope Quote:

 

“quote:

 

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism.

PP

 

And this is not taking credit for the suggestion about the validity of TR ascents?”

 

Here is the first Peter quote without strategic edits:”Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal”

 

Quote from Peter’s second response to this thread: “I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. “

 

Quote from Pope

[here Pope is quoting me]“Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.”

 

[Now Pope is speaking]“Underlying this is the assumption that a “poorly” bolted route is one with too few bolts. Assuming this is true, your quote implies that such a route then will be enjoyed by a more exclusive group, that a more diverse group will somehow be unable to enjoy it. Therein lies your call for equal access. I apologize for putting you through these mental gymnastics. I assumed YOU wouldn’t be reading late at night.”

 

Full quote from Peter: “Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.”

 

Pope note this line in the above quote “Is it over/under protected?”Now think of the Condorphamine Route. Longtime CC.com’s will remember how this route was ridiculed because TOO MANY bolts were placed. Some have suggested that you could have one at your feet, one at your waist, while your were clipping the third. I haven’t climbed the route but if true I would say hey too many bolts! Another example: once I climbed a route where the leader placed bolts off hooks on lead unfortunately due to that fact, everyone of the bolts was in a terrible clipping position. Simply put there was and is no implication as you suggest.

 

Pope quote:”It was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crapIt was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap. Peter, this isn’t your original and clever line either, I’m afraid.”

 

Actually as I said earlier I knew exactly what your response would be since you have given it many times so I am afraid it wasn’t a “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap.” Simply pulling your chain.

 

Pope Quote: He might have even noticed when you called me a hypocrite for denouncing the DDD retrobolting while promising not to chop it since those guys are my buddies.

 

I don’t think that I said hypocrite although it was so long ago and I might have been typing fast. If I did it was in error I would have chosen another word. I can think of several.

 

Pope Quote: “Why do you keep trying to get into my pants?”

 

Now why on earth do you always turn things into something sexual?

 

Regards,

 

PP

[erik]

im up on all the bs bolting issues, but you two take it to a new level of something!?!?!?!

 

one of you must have slept with the others sister and is still bitter....................

[pope]

Yeah, I anticipated all of this. In fact, I just asked Mr. Puget through PM's if this was a wacky form of entertainment for him. I suggested we could quit jerking each other off on line, unless he thought it was fun or something. He responded that he thought Pope was an extremely negative element on this site (for 1-1/2 years) and that he "hates" attacking me. I've promised not to attack the man, and I've promised to ignore any future attacks. Scout's honor. Peter, do you have a sister?

 

Erik, somebody....let's have a Pope survey. Is Pope a negative element on cc.com? Should Pope disappear?

[rayborbon]

Chop Bolts. Sport climbers are wimps. Kill Peter Puget

[jon]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pope:

I suggested we could quit jerking each other off on line

---

Is there some feature installed here I don't know about? Has Tim installed a live Silvia cam?

[Sleeper]

Get over yourselves.

[Peter_Puget]

Here is a copy of my PM:

Actually I hate it but I truly believe you have been a negative element on this site over the past year and half. I believe that your aims could be achieved via different tactics and that you choose your tactics for short term entertainment value not as a means to expeditiously reach your goals.

 

BTW I never did read your earlier PM's but in a the thread "Fragile Poster" didn't say you asked me not to send you PM's?

 

BTW Way Pope does "I" mean all of your identities?

 

[ 04-19-2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

[max]

I had lost hope and disengaged my interest in this thread by the time I noticed it's decay into the classic cc.com form. It's really hilarious!

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

Peter Puget, you advocate mass rap bolting. I think that is lame. I think you are the negative one telling climber's it is ok to have bolts everywhere.

 

Does REI fund your bolting projects of the Access Fund? Pope is way cooler than you dork. By the way I climbed a 5.5 today how about you? There were not bolts.

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[pope]

And here is the PM to which Peter was responding (I feel so naked doing this) in a message title, "Bitch Fight". Let it be known that I'm doing my best to kiss and make up.

 

"How much enjoyment do you get out what we put each other through? It is occasionally amusing, and you're certainly one of the more capable cyber-scrappers on this site, but I think we both look kind of silly. I'll take responsibility for no small part of it, but you and I can't be the assholes we've made each other out to be. What do you say? I'll abstain from personal attacks on you....in fact, I'll do my best to ignore any you make against me. It might even be fun to make our relationship evolve in a cordial direction...unless this is a great source of entertainment for you. In this case, I could try to keep up with it."

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pope:

Let it be known that I'm doing my best to kiss and make up.

---

Pope,

Why must you make everything sexual?

[pope]

quote:

---

Originally posted by chucK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by pope:

Let it be known that I'm doing my best to kiss and make up.

---

Pope,

Why must you make everything sexual?

---

I think that's just an expression, but if it makes your nipples hard...just kidding. Hey, that TRASK fellow is the perv around here!

[Dru]

Im glad Pope said "try to keep up with it" instead of "try to keep it up" to Peter.

[Guest]

This is Gaper_#1,

 

Pope, Retrosaurus, and others,

 

I am Uli Gaper primo. I can free 5.3 at Castle Rock sometimes. I would like to yank some bolts for these Leavenworthites think they own the rock. I say we give them the bolt war they are talking about. Band together with fellow gapers I say. Then remove their bolts. Let's start at Careno Crag and Sam Hill!

 

Quoted below from bolter-

Nice to see the boys back from Leav-n-worth what do you think of the bullshit this week? Did I start something???? Aaaaaaw shhhit! LOL>>

End of quote from bolter-

 

Gaper_#1 Has spoken.

[pope]

pope said:

If you spend time bitching about bolts on this site, you only manage to piss people off (as I have learned). I think it's time for a more constructive approach. Jon and Tim, we need a special column dedicated to route resoration. In this forum, we could discuss how to best remove bolts without damaging the rock, what to look for in a good crow bar, how to remove really stubborn half-inch bolts (I assume they're stubborn, but I don't have much experience), which routes need to be erased, how to make a good patch, etc. Climbers could meet other climbers eager to reverse the disgusting trends of the last decade.

 

The beauty of this is that all of the bitching would then be done by the bolt slingers. What do you say?

 

So, Peter has this new forum called "rock sport" or "bolt climbing" or something like that, where all sorts of serious rock climbing talk transpires, and where spray is banned, and where perhaps Dwayner will be banned from "bitching about bolts".......I think this is how you refer to Dwayner's viewpoints when you can't match wits with him and what he has to say pisses you right off.

 

Anyway, it's been more than a year since I had the idea for this resoration forum, where pussies like .....oh, I'll be discrete and not name names here.....WOULD be allowed to contribute but would be utterly ignored by those of us who take our work seriously. Jon, Tim and other national-socialist members of the moderatorial board.......when can we expect to see this new restoration forum? Huh?