More left wing paranoia...

[willstrickland]

ain't paranoid. Nothin like thread drift. I gave $25 to the local food bank/shelter last week. Supposed to provide 14 meals. I figure I can drink OE-HG for a week and never miss the money, bros on the street gotsta eat too.

 

Fairweather, get your head out of your ass and YOU read it pal. Paranoia? DBT ADMITTED IT sizzlechest!

 

[JoshK]

Will,

 

Re-read the title of the thread and then re-read what you posted.

 

P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A.

 

How is it paranoia if it's FACTS? This happened in Florida, whether you like it or not. Actually I know you like it, actually love it, since it got your boy in office.

 

ROark, to answer your quesiton, personal opinions of citizens around the globe matter a ton. They elect their leaders who in turn deal with our leaders. The GWB right wing isolationist movement can only last so long. I look forward to 50 years from now when China is the dominant super power and we have to play nice to get along, rather than dish out this kind of shit.

[Fairweather]

JoshK said: I look forward to 50 years from now when China is the dominant super power and we have to play nice to get along, rather than dish out this kind of shit.

 

Why would you wish communist oppression on the world? Do you like riding in boxcars more than luxury jet liners?

 

Master Josh,

 

Calm down, relax, and toss another liter of kerosene on the fire.

 

 

[JoshK]

China will not be opressive and communist in 50 years. Things change, you do realize that right? The fact is it's a reality that we won't be the most powerful forever, and the more we press the beliefs you support on others, the more marginalized we will eventually become.

[allthumbs]

Josh, we're all entitled to our opinion. Unfortunately yours is fucking nuts.

[murraysovereign]

JoshK said:

China will not be opressive and communist in 50 years. Things change, you do realize that right?

 

to which Trask replied:

Josh, we're all entitled to our opinion. Unfortunately yours is fucking nuts.

 

to which the National Post today replies: things change

[Dru]

single-party capitalism.... the worst of both worlds

[murraysovereign]

single-party capitalism.... the worst of both worlds

 

Which is why it probably won't last long. And it's a pretty safe bet that it will be the "single-party" aspect that goes by the wayside, rather than the "capitalism." Especially once that many people - what is it, 3 billion of them? - get a taste, it won't be long before they start demanding more than just economic self-determination.

[Peter_Puget]

China will not be opressive and communist in 50 years. Things change, you do realize that right? The fact is it's a reality that we won't be the most powerful forever, and the more we press the beliefs you support on others, the more marginalized we will eventually become.

 

Hell yes let Fairweather have it with both barrels! I am sick of his kind pressing for things like "rule by law" and "Freedom." What does the world need with those things? When the revolution comes....

 

PP

[scrambler]

If I remember correctly the dissolution of the Soviet Union was preceded by Glasnost (openness) then followed by Perestroika (restructuring). So it looks like the Chinese are doing it with economic changes first perhaps to be followed afterwards by free speech, etc. Seemed like there was a lot of social turmoil in the former Soviet Union caused by allowing the people to criticize the government before introducing economic reform.

[Winter]

Whose in for PDX pub club?

[b-rock]

[JayB]

nothing says "bimodal distribution of wealth" more strongly than the fact that hunger and obesity are both increasing in America. Binge or Purge!

 

But in the US the poorer you are the more likely you are to be overweight and vice versa.

[jaee]

You know the drill. Show your trailer park == fatty tie-in data. This doesn't count

[Al_Pine]

From here

 

The Relationship of Ethnicity, Socioeconomic Factors, and Overweight in U.S. Adolescents

Penny Gordon-Larsen, Linda S. Adair and Barry M. Popkin

 

Objective: To examine the extent to which race/ethnic differences in income and education account for sex-specific disparities in overweight prevalence in white, African American, Hispanic, and Asian U.S. teens.

 

Research Methods and Procedures: We used nationally representative data collected from 13,113 U.S. adolescents enrolled in the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health. Logistic regression models were used to examine the relationship of family income and parental education to overweight prevalence (body mass index 85th percentile of age and sex-specific cutoff points from the 2000 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention/National Center for Health Statistics growth charts). In addition, we used coefficients from our logistic regression models to project the effects on overweight prevalence of equalizing the socioeconomic status (SES) differences between race/ethnic groups.

 

Results: Keeping adolescents in their same environments and changing only family income and parental education had a limited effect on the disparities in overweight prevalence. Ethnicity-SES-overweight differences were greater among females than males. Given that overweight prevalence decreased with increasing SES among white females and remained elevated and even increased among higher SES African-American females, African-American/white disparity in overweight prevalence increased at the highest SES. Conversely, disparity was lessened at the highest SES for white, Hispanic, and Asian females. Among males, disparity was lowest at the average SES level.

 

Discussion: One cannot automatically assume that the benefits of increased SES found among white adults will transfer to other gender-age-ethnic groups. Our findings suggest that efforts to reduce overweight disparities between ethnic groups must look beyond income and education and focus on other factors, such as environmental, contextual, biological, and sociocultural factors.

[Al_Pine]

Here's another abstract (full article here )

 

The Relationship of Ethnicity, Socioeconomic Factors, and Overweight in U.S. Adolescents

 

Penny Gordon-Larsen, Linda S. Adair and Barry M. Popkin

 

American Journal of Public Health. 2003 Nov;93(11):1844-50.

 

Objectives. We examined the public health impact of the socioeconomic status (SES) gradient on adolescents’ physical and mental health.

 

Methods. Population attributable risk (PAR) for household income and parental education were calculated relative to depression and obesity among a nationally representative sample of 15 112 adolescents.

 

Results. PARs for income and education were large. Across each gender and race/ethnicity group, the PAR for education tended to exceed that for income. For depression, the adjusted PAR for income was 26%, and the PAR for education was 40%; for obesity, the adjusted PAR for income was 32%, and the PAR for education was 39%.

 

Conclusions. SES is associated with a large proportion of the disease burden within the total population.

[Al_Pine]

Oooooh, another!!! (Probably the best one to bolster JayB's point.)

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Jan;79(1):6-16.

 

 

Poverty and obesity: the role of energy density and energy costs.

 

Drewnowski A, Specter S.

 

Center for Public Health Nutrition, Departments of Epidemiology and Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle (AD), and the US Department of Agriculture Western Human Nutrition Research Center, University of California, Davis (SES).

 

Many health disparities in the United States are linked to inequalities in education and income. This review focuses on the relation between obesity and diet quality, dietary energy density, and energy costs. Evidence is provided to support the following points. First, the highest rates of obesity occur among population groups with the highest poverty rates and the least education. Second, there is an inverse relation between energy density (MJ/kg) and energy cost ($/MJ), such that energy-dense foods composed of refined grains, added sugars, or fats may represent the lowest-cost option to the consumer. Third, the high energy density and palatability of sweets and fats are associated with higher energy intakes, at least in clinical and laboratory studies. Fourth, poverty and food insecurity are associated with lower food expenditures, low fruit and vegetable consumption, and lower-quality diets. A reduction in diet costs in linear programming models leads to high-fat, energy-dense diets that are similar in composition to those consumed by low-income groups. Such diets are more affordable than are prudent diets based on lean meats, fish, fresh vegetables, and fruit. The association between poverty and obesity may be mediated, in part, by the low cost of energy-dense foods and may be reinforced by the high palatability of sugar and fat. This economic framework provides an explanation for the observed links between socioeconomic variables and obesity when taste, dietary energy density, and diet costs are used as intervening variables. More and more Americans are becoming overweight and obese while consuming more added sugars and fats and spending a lower percentage of their disposable income on food.

[JayB]

Good information.

 

To a casual observer like myself it appears that there are some behavioral factors at work as well that the studies don't address - e.g. that the traits that go along with achieving a high SES also play a role in regulating one's weight. In general, I'd venture that people that can't get their asses off of the couch to hit the treadmill or muster the discipline to regulate their supersized milkshake consumption probably aren't overachievers in other aspects of their life. Yes - this is a very gross oversimplification and there are tons of disciplined fat people, and lazy-ass skinny people out there, and everyone has a biological range within which their weight will fluctuate under (historically) normal circumstances - but you can't get away from the fact that:

 

1. The rate of obesity is changing (increasing) much more rapidly than our genetic makeup is, so genetic explanations for increasing obesity are worthless.

 

2. Other regions of the world with roughly similar ethnic make-ups aren't nearly as fat as we are. If it was purely a matter of genes, they'd be as obese as Americans and they aren't.

 

3. This is a recent phenomenon - dating back to the boom in agricultural productivity and the ensuing caloric surplus available to the average consumer after WWII. Try finding me an example of dirt-poor yet morbidly obese people in the historical record prior to this time.

 

The bottom line is that you gain weight when you consume more calories than you burn, you lose weight when you burn more calories than you consume - and the set of behaviors that results in consumption permanently exceeding expenditures is going to be correlated with poverty in some fashion in rich countries, the only places in the world, and in history, where one can sit on one's ass, forgo working, and get fat rather than starve to death.

[Dru]

Is it any wonder, when the healthy food costs two or three times as much as the junk food?

[cj001f]

2. Other regions of the world with roughly similar ethnic make-ups aren't nearly as fat as we are. If it was purely a matter of genes, they'd be as obese as Americans and they aren't.

They aren't as fat as us, no. But the world as a whole is getting fatter.(see last weeks Economist)

[scrambler]

Good information.

 

To a casual observer like myself it appears that there are some behavioral factors at work as well that the studies don't address - e.g. that the traits that go along with achieving a high SES also play a role in regulating one's weight. In general, I'd venture that people that can't get their asses off of the couch to hit the treadmill or muster the discipline to regulate their supersized milkshake consumption probably aren't overachievers in other aspects of their life. Yes - this is a very gross oversimplification and there are tons of disciplined fat people, and lazy-ass skinny people out there, and everyone has a biological range within which their weight will fluctuate under (historically) normal circumstances - but you can't get away from the fact that:

 

1. The rate of obesity is changing (increasing) much more rapidly than our genetic makeup is, so genetic explanations for increasing obesity are worthless.

 

2. Other regions of the world with roughly similar ethnic make-ups aren't nearly as fat as we are. If it was purely a matter of genes, they'd be as obese as Americans and they aren't.

 

3. This is a recent phenomenon - dating back to the boom in agricultural productivity and the ensuing caloric surplus available to the average consumer after WWII. Try finding me an example of dirt-poor yet morbidly obese people in the historical record prior to this time.

 

The bottom line is that you gain weight when you consume more calories than you burn, you lose weight when you burn more calories than you consume - and the set of behaviors that results in consumption permanently exceeding expenditures is going to be correlated with poverty in some fashion in rich countries, the only places in the world, and in history, where one can sit on one's ass, forgo working, and get fat rather than starve to death.

 

Just a thought but I think that our society is bombarded by unrealistic images of how life should be. This imprints high expectations on people who will never be as rich, as beautiful, or as successful as, for example, the imaginery people as seen on TV and print ads. So when the reality does not meet the expectations, do these people (the real ones) imbibe in substitute gratification such as overeating, overspending, uncontrolled gambling, and/or drug abuse? Suppose someone is not getting as much satisfying sex or love as is depicted on a particular tv series or such, will that person substitute that with the immediate gratification obtained by eating? The disappointment generated by the disconnect between reality and expectation may also manifest in other ways such as bulimia, etc. which could easily be seen in the upper middle class or the rich.

 

Just speculation but it seems that the picture is more complex regarding obesity and other societal problems. Seems simplistic to say that the people are obese because they're lazy. If this is true, it follows that these people should work harder, or more, or be more disciplined. Well, sometimes doing these things do not matter as other things such as being well-connected with influential friends or having a college pedigree. Just seems a lot of people are working to an early grave or not actually living life because they're too busy trying to make it, or to achieve their idea of success based on the images presented in media.

[JayB]

The Onion had a hillarious spin on the "The Media Is Responsible for My Low Self Esteem" bit in the last issue. Something along the lines of "Pet Owners Troubled by Unrealistic Images of Animal Beauty in Pet Food Adds."

 

The process of becoming obese involves a variety of factors, and is probably unique for every person, but the bottom line is that one must consume more than one expends in order for the weight gain to occur. The most effective means of promoting weight loss in morbidly obese people is surgically reducing the volume of the stomach - which does not change their genes, their socioeconomic status, immediately reverse longstanding psychological problems, change the composition of the food available in close proximity to their homes, alter the price of the food supply available to them, or any of the other factors that may have contributed to their obesity - it simply limits their ability to absorb calories by consuming food. Cause--->effect. It's that simple.

[scrambler]

Hmm...a simple surgical but workable solution similar to the laser surgery available for correcting eye vision. I'd imagine the surgery is expensive at the scale it's currently performed but maybe will drop in price as availability becomes more widespread and if insurance covers it as a procedure. Seems symptomatic of our society's need for the quick fix.

 

Yeah, the expectations-substitute gratification hypothesis sounds like more of the same liberal blame the system, not take personal responsibility syndrome. I don't believe it's either-or, rather I believe that it's a combination of both that must be addressed to effectively deal with these problems, another reason I'm not a one party animal.

[chucK]

To a casual observer like myself it appears that there are some behavioral factors at work as well that the studies don't address - e.g. that the traits that go along with achieving a high SES also play a role in regulating one's weight. In general, I'd venture that people that can't get their asses off of the couch to hit the treadmill or muster the discipline to regulate their supersized milkshake consumption probably aren't overachievers in other aspects of their life.

[...]

--

--

1. The rate of obesity is changing (increasing) much more rapidly than our genetic makeup is, so genetic explanations for increasing obesity are worthless.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

[JayB]

Not sure how that constitutes a contradiction. Humans have had the same genetic make-up for eons. Mass obesity has only been a problem for a generation at most. If the average person's genetic makeup was the primary factor responsible for their accumulation of massively excessive stores of body-fat, we would have seen this phenotype expressed with the same frequency throughout our history. This is clearly not the case. What has changed in recent history is the virtual elimination of physical exertion from the average person's daily routine, coupled with a food supply in which people must exert control over their caloric intake rather than having it regulated for them by scarcity and privation. No matter how predisposed one is to obesity, becoming obese requires a sustained consumption of far more calories than one expends. The fact that we as a society have attempted to divert responsibility "The Obesity Epidemic" from the individuals who choose to fail to control their consumption of food to a variety of convenient scapegoats like the fast food industry is yet another manifestation of the failure both to take responsibility for our actions and hold others accountable for theirs - also something unique to this generation.