climbing ethics question on long rock routes

[PDXClimber]

Last Sunday at Red Rocks, my partner and I climbed Crimson Crysalis route. We arrived at the base to find three climbers getting ready to climb. First pair started up and the third person was climbing rope solo. The first party was extremely slow causing delays for all that followed. The rope soloist offered to let us pass on belay ledge at top of pitch four recognizing that he would not summit due to slow progress of party ahead of him. The party after us also bailed due to slow progress of the first party. We accepted the soloist offer to pass on the ledge, then climbed up to first party to request a pass, but they declined since they felt like they were close to the top. We probably spent an extra 2.5 hours waiting in hanging belays for the first party and an extra hour on rappels waiting for them. What would you have done in this situation? We made it off the route just as it was getting dark...

[Szyjakowski]

kindly say excuse me we are going to pass you...if they give ya a hard time just clip there anchor and keep climbing...simu climb to the next anchor and piss on the route below you

[rayborbon]

Say-

Move over skinny sporto. We're not the friendly hippy climber types. We are the angry climbers with attitudes.

Then clip the lead climber for pro and move through.

[freeclimb9]

quote:

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Originally posted by PDXClimber:[QB] What would you have done in this situation? QB]

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Just enjoy the route. You were on a classic. Wasn't every pitch great? And the last one on the bullet-hard stone? Superb, no? Passing someone without their consent isn't really possible on Crimson Chrysalis.

When in a similar circumstance, I'll just chat with the belayer and joke that they owe us beers. You might have asked about beginning the rap before them. Good humor can breed cooperation. On a route in southern AZ recently, we combined the rappel effort with another party and got everyone off the route very quickly (4 ropes, 5 people, 3 rappels in about 1/2 hour. The first one to rappel would carry a rope --or two-- and set the next rappel); This can work great on a descent with ledges. But that's not the case with Crimson Chrysalis.

[erik]

climbing courtesy only extends so far.....when it comes to long routes, the safest thing to do is get it done as fast as possible. having beginners or slower parties holding you back is a wrong on their part.

i say wait till there as a safe situation possible and pass them, wait till they get to europe or most other lcimbing places in the world....

[Szyjakowski]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

Passing someone without their consent isn't really possible on Crimson Chrysalis.

.

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bullsheit...i did it my self...at least on the third or forth pitch...

[dberdinka]

If you choose to go to the most crowded route in Red Rocks on a weekend, one that attracts more than it's share of less-than-competent parties due to its classic stature, easy rating and solid pro, I think you should probably just suck it up, take it easy and deal with the waits unless you're given permission to pass.

Basically you're there (hopefully) to have fun, just like everyone else. Climbing over, under, on-top-of and around other parties (particularly without belay ledges) is rarely fun for anyone involved unless your ego needs some bolstering.

To solve the problem, get up earlier! (though you'd probably need to bivi to get dibs on that route) or pick something harder, remoter, or less classic.

On Wednesday, March 27th my buddy and I showed up at the base of the same route to find ourselves 11th and 12th in line. We immediately bolted about 10 minutes away to Ginger Buttress where our only company that day was a big horn sheep. Great climbing on a fine line.

On the hike out we ran into #7 and #8 on CC who spent 4 hours climbing and waiting on the first 2 pitches before bailing. Pretty harsh considering they started their walk in at 4:30 AM!

[Retrosaurus]

quote:

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Originally posted by freeclimb9:

...Passing someone without their consent isn't really possible on Crimson Chrysalis.

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Bullshit. Six years ago my pregnant wife and I passed a party of three on the crux of Outerspace. We did not even ask. All we said was "Hi" as we climbed through. Did not need to clip their pro. Any one bumbling along that slowly I would not trust their gear anyway.

Erik is right on. Climbing courtesy extends only so far. I am not going to get benighted because of some goober.

On a trip to the Bugs my partner and I climbed that ultracool classic ridge on Bugaboo Spire. We got the early start from the hut but then screwed up the approach and ended up on 5th class talus. Scrambling to recover our place at the head of the pack. We ended up at the base with three other parties on the route ahead of us and another from New York at the base. The Yorkies, seeing that we were rushing, says "You might as well take your time and enjoy the route. There are several parties ahead of us too." We hurriedly roped up and simul-climbed eight pitches, catching the last party just below the summit and deciding to follow them because they had climbed the (descent route) Kain Route the day before. (I hate stressing about descents.) We were back in the hut eating dinner at 5pm. The next day the New Yorkers found us and apologized to us!. "Man, you were right. We got back at 3am."

[todd]

call me eurotrash, but id wait for an opportunity when it was possible then pass them without asking (if they were going as slow as you say they were). id ask them if they minded as soon as i passed them. i wouldnt be a dick about it, id just smile and try to act modest and act like its an everyday occurrence. its kinda like those friends who grab a fry, eat it, then ask "can i have a fry?" how can you say no at that point?

[chucK]

You can't use "safety" as your excuse for needing to pass someone on CC. On any route where the descent is rapping the route, the quickest way to the ground and out of "harm's way" is to just rap from wherever you are.

If you pass, you ARE going to slow the party you're passing down. You passing them might make the difference between them getting to the top or being benighted. If you're gonna pass, make damn sure you got yer shit together so you slow them down as little as possible.

[offwidthclimber]

quote:

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Originally posted by dberdinka:

If you choose to go to the most crowded route in Red Rocks on a weekend, one that attracts more than it's share of less-than-competent parties due to its classic stature, easy rating and solid pro...

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have you ever done the cat in the hat?

at a grade or two easier than CC, and only 5 pitches, that thing is the fucking retard magnet of the red rocks. first time i did it there was only one party behind us because it was blowing 30 mph and threatening rain. we had a great day. the second time i, we bailed because there were 5 parties on route in front of us at the top of the second pitch. we rapped off and were awe struck by the cluster fuck starting up the first pitch and the long line waiting.

by the time we were on our third beers , the competent dudes who were in front of us rolled into the campground (around 7:30 pm) ready to kill

[mattp]

As noted already, there are a lot of different viewpoints expressed here. However, whether you believe "I have a good-given right to pass anyone I please" or "it is dangerous to pass people in the middle of a climb" or whatever else, I support those who suggest showing courtesy and respect for your slower brethren. If you do decide to pass them (particularly if they express discomfort with this) you owe it to them to be absolutely as helpful and friendly about it as you can.

As Darin noted, it is entirely unreasonable to expect to have a known classic to yourself, particularly on a weekend, and anybody who demands that they have a right to pass or an absolute right not to be passed is probably being just plain rude. Ask them for permission to pass. If you have done this before, and you think you can pass them without completely screwing them up, talk to them about it. If they still say no, most of the time I think you should probably respect that choice because I think those "gumbies" have just as much of a right to be there as you do.

I said probably, and there are certainly situations where I might pass them anyway, but you should recognize is that you are basically saying that you think you are more important than they are, or that you have superior rights because you are a better climber, or something like that. Maybe you can pass them, without significantly impeding their progress, and everybody wins. But maybe not.

Sure, you want to climb CC, Outer Space or the NE Buttress of Bugaboo Spire. Everybody does, because these routes are touted as being the "routes to do." But in my view, you should climb elsewhere if you aren't willing to share these climbs with the other climbers that you absolutely know will be there -- especially on a weekend.

[max]

I like what matt said. I'd like to add a related comment.

People in front have the ability to influence the safety of parties below via rockfall and "time-issues". If a lower party is unwilling to accept these risks, they (generally) have the option of bailing. When a party asks to pass another, they implicitly ask "are you willing to accept the risk of being below us?" I don't think it's generally right to force this risk upon others, even if the passing party thinks they're faster and safe enough to pass.

All this is pretty theoretical. Pratically, I thikn it's just how agressive you want to be (both as a passer and a pass-ie) and trying to avoid the easy classics.

Finally, I like the cc references. We followed a super slow party on that route. To make it even worse, the in front of us pissed on me! Serious. I don't know what the hell he was thinking. I got back at him though by sending him down a 85+ rap on a 160 rope! And I think he had to take a shit or throw up too, cause he was in a real hurry to get off. We rapped past him as he was trying to fix his mess.

[specialed]

I generally agree with MattP. Passing or being passed usually sucks. Thats great incentive to not put yourself in that situation by either climbing more obscure routes with long approaches, getting up super early, starting late, etc. Sometimes congestion on a route is unavoidable but its common sense that if you start a route right behind some gumbies there's probably going to be issues. Maybe in PDXclimbers case, their best bet would have been to come back another day once they got to the base and saw the situation.

[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: specialed ]

[Terminal_Gravity]

This is a bit anectidotal but about 20 years ago I had a a little run in with a Yosimite rescue dude. As a joke a friend of mine had some cheap shirt made that said Yosimite rescue team printed in big letters on the back. I'm not one to turn down a free shirt.

I was on Beacon rock a few years back and was behind some slow but reasonably competant climbers. I did my normal thing of trying to climb extremely fast and smooth when approaching a slower party. I timed it perfectly and blazed up to the second about fifteen feet below the first belay ledge and chatted friendly like and without pressure to the ledge at which point I said we would like to pass if they didn't mind. They were reluctant at first but made a complete 180 all of a sudden and invited us to pass. My partner and I simulclimbed a little way to get out of their way and I belayed him past them before they had a chance to get slowed up. From above I heard them saying something like, whoa that guy is from Yosimite. I was wearing that tired old shirt. Apparently they had read the shirt at the ledge and that (for some reason) convinced them to let me pass.

Maybe we should all get "speed climbing champion" printed on some shirts?!

Seriously, I am a smooth leader but not really all that fast, but have had to pass plenty of parties through the years. I have had very good luck with the tecnique of holding back a bit and then blazing up to them just before a belay, being friendly but telling them that I am " going to pass, if they don't mind". This is better than a yes or no question like "Can I pass?". Last August I climbed Exum on the Grand Teton and passed 19 people with no problems or hurt feelings using this method.

[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: Terminal Gravity ]

[Bronco]

12 parties all on one route jockeying for passing lanes sound like a serious accident waiting to happen. I don't think you'd catch me near that cluster f@ck at this stage in my climbing career.

If you can pass a party confidently I wouldnt mind, I climb kinda slow still and if someone came crusin through in a calm confident manner, I would just sit back for a couple of minutes and try and learn something.

Conversly, if you came up below and requested to pass, considering I am already stressed about making too many decisions (is it good pro, are we on route), I'd probably say "nope".

[PDXClimber]

interesting to see that replies on this thread span the spectrum. we knew that we should have gotten up earlier, so we figured first group had dibs on route. i was also wondering about style of soloist choosing a crowded classic for rope soloing (reqd going up twice and down once for each pitch). in the end we tried to keep it relatively low key, but the hanging belays really became less pleasant as our time hanging in belays easily doubled while waiting for the slow party in front. if i did it again (it was a superb route and really fun despite delays) i would get up earlier. otherwise i would try to go past soloist earlier so we could push on past slow party early on the route. it seemed like the slow first party were new to multipitches since they lost efficiency most on transitions (they often rearranged their anchors several times to make sure it was equalized on the bolted anchors). the other factor was that red rocks rangers supposedly fine climbers returning after dark. maybe the first party ended up with a ticket?