Toast Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Some of the alpine TR's mention brining along a few pins. Cavey's blanket suggestion of a few knife blades and a few lost arrows comes to mind. In reality the things are kind of heavy. If you're heading out on a winter alpine route (say, tripple c's) what specific ones would you take, how many, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It's not heavy when you consider it crucial. Â Can always carry Titaniums. Â If I have never been on a moderate route I will carry 4 kbs 1-2 lost arros and one baby angle.. Â Then I pick up my mounties guide and bring the 50 essentials so I can have a 90lb pack for those fun winter jaunts in the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Cpt.Caveman said: If I have never been on a moderate route I will carry 4 kbs 1-2 lost arros and one baby angle.. Â Capt. Caveman is right on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 a bugaboo a knifeblade a baby angle. for wider iced up cracks you can stack em against a nut or hex. cams in an icy crack dont work too well. desperation is the mother of invention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 (edited) I don't carry them very often. But when I carry pins for potentially loose alpine rock this is the order of value ( weight over usebility)  Baby angles Short LA's KB's Medium angles Long La's  just my 2 cents Edited December 5, 2003 by Terminal_Gravity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toast Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Cpt.Caveman said: If I have never been on a moderate route I will carry 4 kbs 1-2 lost arros and one baby angle.. Â KB's come in different lengths and thicknesses. LA's too I think. Do you bring a variety or a couple of the most likely size. If the latter, which? What's a good book or article that talks about these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I have found medium length KBs are pretty damn good. At times the seams are shallow for full length kbs but not always. Thickness is something I have not found to be a dire situation yet. Â LA same deal as above. Â Baby angle - I get the smallest one they got for sale. Â Â You're usually beating them into chossy iced up shit anyway. Hammer the shit until the crack opens up some more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I find the shorter pins generally more useful than longer ones. I'll often bring 2-3 kb's and 2 lost arrows or something .. maybe a baby angle. It often seems to be the case that the actual selection isn't all that crucial but having a few small pins on the rack comes in handy when you are around iced up or snow-plastered rock and want to get in a good belay somewhere even on a relatively moderate snow and ice climb such as the TC's that you cited as an example; the fact that somebody used a thin KB last week doesn't mean you'll even see the crack that they placed it in when you are up there next week. I'm not trying to be snide but Cavey really told you all you really need to know the first time around because it is not a precise kind of a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toast Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 cool, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 when do we get to start spraying about all the damage ROCK NAILS do to the natural enviroment!!! and what about a hand drill & 1/8 bolts??? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 if you can find old SMC shallow angles they cover the same range as lost arrows but are lighter.  they don't make them anymore, i have been told this is because they were weaker than they should have been and the eye sometimes broke when shock loaded  speaking of which I will pay up to $3 US D each for anyone's old SMC shallow angles! purely for my collection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Toast said:What's a good book or article that talks about these? Â Twight talks a bit about pins in 'Extreme Alpininsm.' Â Pretty similar to what everyone is saying here, except he is down on LAs and Ti. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Ti sucks! I had a bunch (50 maybe) that were left as trash at the base of a moutnain. Tried using a couple and thought "Now I know why they left these at the bottom" Â PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toast Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Peter_Puget said: Ti sucks! I had a bunch (50 maybe) that were left as trash at the base of a moutnain. Tried using a couple and thought "Now I know why they left these at the bottom" Â Ti may suck, but you gotta tell us why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norsky Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 All this talk of pounding iron into alpine rock. Which blades to bring, is the route in condition, spindrift, etc. It makes me remember why I'm now so soft and enjoy cragging and bouldering so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 This was a long time ago so the details are not very specific but basically not once could I get a good placement. I used the heavy pins instead adfter trying the Ti. These were shaped like thick bugaboos. Similar to the old Lowe design. Not sure the origin – the group that left them were Japanese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 erik said: when do we get to start spraying about all the damage ROCK NAILS do to the natural enviroment!!! and what about a hand drill & 1/8 bolts??? Â Â 1/8"???? NO WAY!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaee Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 So what did you do with them? C'mon, share the trash. Dibs on 5 if you still have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackbolter Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Those thick Lowe pins are awesome!!! Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Ti Pins make good anchors. But dont expect a long lifespan. They bend easier. But they are way lighter and if you are on a mountain where you think you might have to bail or something and need an anchor they are good and light so taking one is no big deal. Some people dont like some cams it's an opinion.. Â I think Pubic is complaining about old bullshit garbage and applying it to all brands makes etc due to his comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Cavey is right on the short lifespan. My guess is the elasticity (not sure if that is the right word) of the metal just aint great for quality pins. Threw them out, gave the few I brought back away. Â In the Cascade it is hard to believe the weight savings will prove useful but the lack of utility may prove hazardous. Â Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 In the Cascade it is hard to believe the weight savings will prove useful but the lack of utility may prove hazardous. Â As I imply above- If you are on remote areas where you might need to rappel set your own anchor or escape but otherwise would not carry a piton one might argue that carry just one or 2 Ti pins is acceptable for safety. Â I that is a lot safer than none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Cavey - I mean to suggest carry a couple non Ti pins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 They work fine for me and are lighter. Â Â Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrest_m Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Colin placed one of those Ti knifeblades on inspiration last winter and I could not get it out despite a fair amount of effort. It vibrated a lot but wouldn’t move at all – I think it absorbed all the energy of the hammer blow in vibration. Maybe I could’ve yanked it with a funkness? We left it as a rap anchor. I agree with the comments that the Ti pitons are good last-resort anchors for adventure climbing, but I’ll stick with Cro-Moly when I’m expecting to use pitons.  I usually carry 1-2 short KBs, 1 long one, a medium LA and a baby angle or two. The angles are great for weird rock, getting anchors into icy pods, etc. You can sometimes get really good placements in shallow horizontal slots by straddling the upper or lower lip within the V of the angle piton and pounding the pin in parallel to the direction of the crack. I’ve done this a couple of times in cracks that were too shallow or filled with ice to get a cam into, as long as there’s some kind of projection for the piton to catch against. The short KB’s aren’t very confidence inspiring, but they don’t weigh much either. A lot of times in very compact rock, they’re the only thing that works, since what cracks exist bottom out.  I’ve always wanted to place my spare ice tool pick as a LA, a la the story in twight’s book, but I haven’t had the chance yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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