debate fodder: lots of new climbers

[Dru]

[pope]

cracked said:

jkassidy said:

Eleven years? That's about half my climbing career.

 

Wow, you must be a climbing God! May I lick your boots?

 

Anyway, this sounds like genuine progress. Good to see the bolt clippers losing interest in the fad (I think Dwayner predicted this), or is it that the bolt chasers have graduated from "playing at climbing" and are ready for their first 5.10a crack climbs

 

Ever heard of the Huber brothers? They were climbing 5.13 cracks within their second day of trad climbing. Same with Sharma. He onsighted 13b on the Rostrum. Sounds like you're just grumpy cause they climb harder than you, trad or sport. Keep feeling superior, but you still suck.

 

These guys are...... friends of yours? .....your aunt's 2nd husband's supervisor's nephews? What's your point?

[pope]

Distel32 said:

hey Jkassidy,

 

it soundsto me like you are tooting your own horn you chuffer.

 

saying all sport climbers can't even wait in line to do the climbs that you're doing??

 

 

That was supposed to be funny. The juvenile, distorted chatter of Erik, Cracked, et al. is beginning to influence me.

[Off_White]

How is it that a discussion of the impact of the expanding number of climbers has become focused on bolts? I'm with whoever complained about finding a campsite, there was a time when you could drive into Hidden Valley Campground in J Tree on a friday night and find a site, or spend two months living in your car in the Yosemite Lodge parking lot. How's that for a definition of the "golden age?"

[Peter_Puget]

Been busy and missed this thread. I tend to think that a Golden age is specific to an individual. For me the golden age of climbing is when Friends became common place. Certainly they made launching up some crack in Yosemite less scary than before. Small TCUs in the mid 80s also started a mini golden age.

[AlpineK]

jkassidy said:

erik said:

im not trying to pick a fight with dwayner, i am just telling him his rhetoric is tiresome and pointless. he only uses his personal reflections on the subject to attempt to belittle other climbers.

 

he should just stick to with what he knows.

 

 

I happen to know it is a fact that Dwayner hasn't posted under that name (he's still banned) nor any other name since he was arbitrarily banned back in September, although he does check in to read posts and messages. Many people agree with what he says. I happen to be only one of the many.

 

Yes Pope and Dwayner represent a tag team for the extreme and irrational view against bolts. I haven't seen anyone else join them at their antibolt level.

 

Dwayner was being a major prick, so he got banned. You know that even though you wont admit it.

[AlpineK]

Off_White said:

How is it that a discussion of the impact of the expanding number of climbers has become focused on bolts? I'm with whoever complained about finding a campsite, there was a time when you could drive into Hidden Valley Campground in J Tree on a friday night and find a site, or spend two months living in your car in the Yosemite Lodge parking lot. How's that for a definition of the "golden age?"

 

This is the real issue. Back in the golden age you could go where you wanted to without crouds and without the man making you pay fees and restricting your camping options.

[catbirdseat]

What do you think can be done about the camping situation? Any ideas? How about more camp sites? Good? Bad? Seems to me that even though there have been more people, there hasn't been a new campground built in many, many years. Why?

[arlen]

Probably the most versatile movie quote ever is from Quiz Show, when Herb Stemple says:

 

You know what the problem with you bums is? You never leave a guy alone till you're leaving him alone.

 

[bunglehead]

catbirdseat said:

What do you think can be done about the camping situation? Any ideas? How about more camp sites? Good? Bad? Seems to me that even though there have been more people, there hasn't been a new campground built in many, many years. Why?

 

Good point CBS. In the Deshcutes NF, there used to be a few campgrounds along the deschutes, but the FS has ripped them all out. Supposedly to discourage squatters, but now there's no legal camping near Bend.

Enforcement problem? It's not like they'd let you camp for free, so it seems to me like they got rid of a money source. Hmmm..maybe the real issue here is the blatant hypocrisy of the Forest Dis-service.

[pope]

AlpineK said:

Off_White said:

How is it that a discussion of the impact of the expanding number of climbers has become focused on bolts? I'm with whoever complained about finding a campsite, there was a time when you could drive into Hidden Valley Campground in J Tree on a friday night and find a site, or spend two months living in your car in the Yosemite Lodge parking lot. How's that for a definition of the "golden age?"

 

This is the real issue. Back in the golden age you could go where you wanted to without crouds and without the man making you pay fees and restricting your camping options.

 

I would direct you to MattP's post (above) in which he challenges this notion and categorically proves that, indeed, climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system.

 

Good one, huh?

[johnny_destiny]

I know several families in the SunValley area that have engineered & architecturally designed wall or gyms for thier homes. Guess what...most have NEVER considered climbing outside.

[pope]

Off_White said:

How is it that a discussion of the impact of the expanding number of climbers has become focused on bolts? I'm with whoever complained about finding a campsite, there was a time when you could drive into Hidden Valley Campground in J Tree on a friday night and find a site, or spend two months living in your car in the Yosemite Lodge parking lot. How's that for a definition of the "golden age?"

 

Bolts, crowds, crowded campgrounds.....they seem to conspicuously coexist, almost symbiotically. When we take the macho aspect out of climbing, when we make climbing something that becomes about as dangerous and adventurous as playing volleyball without a helmet....of course it will have greater appeal. When leading difficult rock (something that used to require guts, skill and great judgment) is demystified by a trail of bolts, and when we let today's climbers feel as though they're really doing something that is parallel to the old, heroic 5th-class leading, then new climbers will inundate our cliffs in search of that heroic, sharp-end feeling. It's just one, big happy illusion.....and I'm all for Quixotic fantasies, just not when the result is crowding and ugly bolt trails.

 

We're discussing the increased number of climbers which were reported at the beginning of this thread. I think mentioning the impact sportclimbing has on this increase is valid.

[lummox]

johnny_destiny said:

I know several families in the SunValley area that have engineered & architecturally designed wall or gyms for thier homes. Guess what...most have NEVER considered climbing outside.

you orbit in some wierd social circles dude. got some digits for these folks?

[RuMR]

blah blah blah, back in the old days, blah blah blah....we hiked through 35 foot snow drifts uphill both directions to get to our current horror show testpiece 5.8+ with which we proved our manly worth...then we trudged back home (again, uphill) through 50 foot snow drifts w/ our 40lb hexes freezing to our asses...it was traumatic, like combat, and we, the select few, were proud and manly...blah blah blah blah...

 

HAHAHAHA you're an anachronistic (that's probably not even a word, but it fits) joke...

[Dru]

isnt YOSEMITE the most crowded climbing area around, and the home of trad? and of shitting in a paper bag or a PVC tube too?

[RuMR]

Dru said:

isnt YOSEMITE the most crowded climbing area around, and the home of trad? and of shitting in a paper bag or a PVC tube too?

 

Dru...what the hell you bringing up good points for????? Sheesh...

 

 

[mattp]

jkassidy said:

 

I would direct you to MattP's post (above) in which he challenges this notion and categorically proves that, indeed, climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system.

 

Good one, huh?

 

In addition to suffering from myopia, is reading comprehension a problem for you, too? I noted that I think Indext Town Wall is probably less crowded now than in 1985 or whatever, nowhere did I argue that "climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system."

 

If you want to make any kind of argument that has any meaning at all, you gotta do better than that.

[JayB]

jkassidy said:

Bolts, crowds, crowded campgrounds.....they seem to conspicuously coexist, almost symbiotically. When we take the macho aspect out of climbing, when we make climbing something that becomes about as dangerous and adventurous as playing volleyball without a helmet....of course it will have greater appeal. When leading difficult rock (something that used to require guts, skill and great judgment) is demystified by a trail of bolts, and when we let today's climbers feel as though they're really doing something that is parallel to the old, heroic 5th-class leading, then new climbers will inundate our cliffs in search of that heroic, sharp-end feeling. It's just one, big happy illusion.....and I'm all for Quixotic fantasies, just not when the result is crowding and ugly bolt trails.

 

Back when I was young people who made such statements about the cowardice of others were not afraid to use their real names while doing so. Golden Age indeed.

 

[RuMR]

That's cuz its all nostalgia (def: Forget everything negative)...they tend to forget they were peeing their pants...

 

Its bullshit posting under an avatar...

[cracked]

Is all this really worth the time it takes? Pope will never change. I'm doing my best to ignore him.

[pope]

JayB said:

jkassidy said:

Bolts, crowds, crowded campgrounds.....they seem to conspicuously coexist, almost symbiotically. When we take the macho aspect out of climbing, when we make climbing something that becomes about as dangerous and adventurous as playing volleyball without a helmet....of course it will have greater appeal. When leading difficult rock (something that used to require guts, skill and great judgment) is demystified by a trail of bolts, and when we let today's climbers feel as though they're really doing something that is parallel to the old, heroic 5th-class leading, then new climbers will inundate our cliffs in search of that heroic, sharp-end feeling. It's just one, big happy illusion.....and I'm all for Quixotic fantasies, just not when the result is crowding and ugly bolt trails.

 

Back when I was young people who made such statements about the cowardice of others were not afraid to use their real names while doing so. Golden Age indeed.

 

If it weren't for the juvenile language and obscene images of perverted toads one encounters on this site, I could probably post from my workplace using my real name and not feel embarassed about it.

[RuMR]

Hey...i've managed to hold off on this thread for a WHOLE day...but when he starts that crap about how bold the old were, he's full of it...yeah, there were a few of them, just like there are a few of them now...

 

I started around the same time as he did...and there were just a few really bold climbers then as now...so he's pissing up a pole as far as that whole "back in the day...crap"...

[RuMR]

jkassidy said:

JayB said:

jkassidy said:

Bolts, crowds, crowded campgrounds.....they seem to conspicuously coexist, almost symbiotically. When we take the macho aspect out of climbing, when we make climbing something that becomes about as dangerous and adventurous as playing volleyball without a helmet....of course it will have greater appeal. When leading difficult rock (something that used to require guts, skill and great judgment) is demystified by a trail of bolts, and when we let today's climbers feel as though they're really doing something that is parallel to the old, heroic 5th-class leading, then new climbers will inundate our cliffs in search of that heroic, sharp-end feeling. It's just one, big happy illusion.....and I'm all for Quixotic fantasies, just not when the result is crowding and ugly bolt trails.

 

Back when I was young people who made such statements about the cowardice of others were not afraid to use their real names while doing so. Golden Age indeed.

 

If it weren't for the juvenile language and obscene images of perverted toads one encounters on this site, I could probably post from my workplace using my real name and not feel embarassed about it.

 

So then, how do you feel about incessant Richard Simmons postings, and Sport climbers are gay posting. This is very offensive in a two-fold manner: 1.) you are insinuating that something is wrong w/ being a homosexual, and 2.) you are then using that little "factoid" to then slam sportclimbing

 

You are a hypocrite if you are who i think you are. Your previous postings point to the fact that you can get right down to the level of JayB and others...So don't play that weak card...

[pope]

mattp said:

jkassidy said:

 

I would direct you to MattP's post (above) in which he challenges this notion and categorically proves that, indeed, climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system.

 

Good one, huh?

 

In addition to suffering from myopia, is reading comprehension a problem for you, too? I noted that I think Indext Town Wall is probably less crowded now than in 1985 or whatever, nowhere did I argue that "climbing areas/camping areas are probably less crowded than they were and that we are currently dealing with a less restrictive permit system."

 

If you want to make any kind of argument that has any meaning at all, you gotta do better than that.

 

I mean it Matt, you did it. You offered some convincing evidence to support those ideas. It went something like this:

 

Permits and Fees? As long as I've been climbing, these were a part of the climbing experience. The Tetons had climbing permit requirements by the 1960's, I think, and it was even more difficult to get a permit to climb Mount Rainier in the winter in the '70's than it is now -- you had to show up during office hours so they could inspect your gear. The Enchantments permits started when - late ‘70's? Park entrance fees have been collected as long as I can remember.

 

And who could forget:

 

.....crowds have always been a part of climbing as long as I can remember. Parking at the Gunks was a big problem in 1970. The Climber's Ranch in the Tetons was probably more crowded in the mid '70's than now. Camp 4 in the Valley was also a busy place by the mid ‘70's and you had to "take a number" and wait three days to get onto the Nose route.

 

You see? The genius, the wealth of experience that defines the man, MattP.