Hero or Zero?

[Greg_W]

Dru said:

Did you take a hammer and a bunch of pins up Glacier Peak, big shot?

 

Don't you have a life?

[Szyjakowski]

Greg_W said:

Dru said:

Did you take a hammer and a bunch of pins up Glacier Peak, big shot?

 

Don't you have a life?

[EWolfe]

Dru said:

fixed goes clean

 

but it screams when you weight it.

[gnibmilc]

Dru said:

so you would rather see the few hammer required placements on a 99% clean route get blown out until clean gear goes into the scar, than see a fixed pin or two?

hey what are you doing next weekend? there's an old free line at castle rock that hasn't been lead in years...you want to get some pins together and work on it?

[Dru]

i have huge blocks to trundle up here

piton destruction can take a number

[gnibmilc]

Lambone said:

For me it was a matter of risk. You can place a tiny hb brassy, ball-nut, cam-hookor two cam black alien as good as it could possibly be placed...but the simple fact is that it is more likely to blow on you then a pin. Bounce tests prove this over and over again....A sawed of pin with one or two firm taps (not-blows) isn't going to affect the route that much.

[A sawed of pin with one or two firm taps (not-blows) isn't going to affect the route that much.

in no way is my intent to mess with your style. i do mean to challenge your net influence on new entries to aid climbing. they read this stuff and want to step right up to....Zodiac.

 

do you really think a sawed off pin with one or two firm taps is going to even make you fart when it pulls? the offset alien or other gizmo isn't more solid 99% of the time (with respect to a tap tapped sawed off pin)? is your risk really lower tapping in the sawed off pin than fiddling the clean gear or stepping up on a bomber hook (sky or camming) to the next bomber clean point of protection that you can stick clip? shoot, there aren't too many spots to crash on Zodiac. couple of corners, a gnarly black spike, a ledge or two, the ground, that's about it. no matter, I just can't stand seeing guys/gals going out heavily ladden with a load of iron when they could be having a bunch more fun going at it clean...not pushing the style of ascending trade routes... your written words probably impact lots of people. and think of our children's lost chance to free climb these routes in their natural state!

[Lambone]

do you really think a sawed off pin with one or two firm taps is going to even make you fart when it pulls?

ummm..what the fuck is that supposed to mean? I am starting to think that either you haven't done much aid climbing, or haven't hammered many pitons. Two taps on a sawed off in a typical Yosemite pin scar is usually all you need to get a bomber bodyweight placement. Lots of times you don't even need to hammer the pin at all, just shove it in there...

 

Look Socrates, I have taught a bunch of aid climbing courses, and taught several of my friends how to aid climb. Not once in that process did a hammer ever appear, not once was it ever advocated that they should invest in a hammer or pitons at first. I have personaly only nailed pitons on three aid climbs that I have done. I climbed only clean routes for 6 or 7 years before I nailed my fist pin on an aid route (mountains not included).

 

Beginner wall climbers are going to contiune to get on the Zodiac, and that is fine. It is often considered the esiest route on El Cap. If I were coaching a first timer who was jumping on the Zodiac, I would advise them to climb some obscure line and learn to pound a good pin and head where it won't piss anyone off. People getting on a route like Zodiac should know how to use a hammer and pound a piton without over driving it, as well as place copperheads. If they don't then they are either kidding themselves, or resigning to learn the hard way when they need to.

 

These skills are part of the game of wall climbing. Zodiac is a route that can be climbed clean, but everyone knows that a clean ascent is highly relient on fixed gear. Should that gear not be there and you want to finish the route, then you will need a hammer, it is as simple as that. If people don't want to be exposed to this risk then they should do the Nose, Salathe, or Tripple Direct. Even Lurking Fear, but then you still might need a head or two.

 

Personally I would rather see people learn to use pitons properly before jumping on any El Cap route that might need a piton. I speak from my own inexperience here. People who have never aided on their own pitons tend to bash the hell out of them, either fixing them, or creating alot of damage when trying to clean them.

 

You also seem to thing I'm advocating nailing pins in offset alien placements or bomber cam hook placements that will hold 99% of the time. No, wrong...you and I arn't even talking about the same thing here...do you have any idea what I am talking about?

 

Lastly, to claim that the Zodiac is in some sort of "natural state" is to admit that you haven't climbed it recently. It is a contrived clip-up, no more no less. It's natural state is old school A5 Charlie Porter Style. Now it is covered in bolts and big fat trenched head placements, which is a whole 'nother issue. The Hubers free climb is a squeeze job with new bolts and anchors all over the place to the right and left of the route. They had to remove a bunch of bomber fixed heads to use the dug out trenches as finger pockets. To call that anything resembeling a "natural state" is just a load of crap. People arguing over the preservation of the Natural Beauty of the Zodiac are really a joke in my opinion. No matter what anybody thinks, people from around the world are going to continue nailing a hand full of beat out pin scars until they take 1.5 inch angles, just like the Shield. Yeah I wish it was different, but thats reality.

 

Either way you argue the point people will allways disagree with you, I used to be a clean-aid nazi...going about like Will, slamming other people for nailing pins on routes that go clean. And I got twice as much shit for that...so now I am admitting that I had to pound some pitons and that I don't feel too bad about it, I wish I had been able to do it clean, but I made a decision and I'm fine with it. If some gumby wants to take that as their own excuse to go nail on clean routes than so be it...nobody is perfect.

 

Sorry I am so grumpy, but it is late...

[glassgowkiss]

Paco said:

glassgowkiss said:

but once it goes free stay the fuck away with the hammer and pitons. as i said, i didn't even read dicklands pantsy-ass wine about the climb. but looking back at it he deserves the same bitch- slapping as the other guy.

darin, i somewhat agree with your statements, but.... i think it is lame when people go and nail free climbs. in 96 i witnessed 2 texans bashing pins on glowering spot pitch, because they thought hanging on a couple of rp's was too much for their fat asses. their argument was that the nose had only 1 free ascent....

and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer

 

Gotta disagree with you on the "if it goes free then stop nailing it" bullshit. The Huber's among others who are free climbing the hard aid lines are using pitons to protect the routes. Some or all of the gear is pre placed. Read the article by Alex Huber in the recent AAj. He placed pins on his free climb of something in the Dolomites. Also, I think the Hubers used pins while free climbing Zodiac on El Cap.

 

Just because a route goes free doesn't mean people shouldn't nail it.

what's your point donkey? punching your clown too much and going blindd on us? free climbing and protecting a free climb are 2 things. first of all i call a complete bullshit your whole statement. they left all hte gear necesary to free climb in place. second look at el ninio, where they didn't place the bolt to protect 13c climbing, hence you'll take a 60 ft whipper on a knifebalde. can you do that. tell me laddy, how many days did you spend on elcap working on a free route? do you even know what does it mean to free a route. have you ever climbed anything remotely resembling 13a, b c or anything in that range?

after spending several days on salathe i can tell you this: i would be really pissed if someone went and pouded pins on that route. as of june of last year it was a public knowledge that zodiak is a free route. you must be a complete moron to be oblivious to this fact. i just hope people will stop pouding pins on this one. there is plenty of stone left for nail-ups there.

btw, do your reading carefully. they hand placed pins on bella-vista, hence wicked long falls on 14a pitch protected by A4 gear. so think before dissing someone fuckstick throat callus sloafer and clown puncher.

[rbw1966]

Dru said:

Did you take a hammer and a bunch of pins up Glacier Peak, big shot?

 

Extremely cheap shot.

 

 

[Lambone]

Thats ok, we didn't thake a hammer and pins on Glacier Peak...only a cell phone. Call me a pussy...see if I care...

[rbw1966]

I just find it funny that Dru calls someone else a 'big shot' in light of his endless chestbeating and cock-measuring. God help him if he ever needs a rescue and anyone on this board finds out.

[Scott_J]

God almighty how many times can we spray about pins, aid, bolts. Jesus H fucking Christ there are a ton of better subjects to fucking spray about. Get over it and fucking forget about it. I have been hearing about this shit since 1972 and it does not change.

[dberdinka]

glassgowkiss said:

what's your point donkey? punching your clown too much and going blindd on us? free climbing and protecting a free climb are 2 things. first of all i call a complete bullshit your whole statement. they left all hte gear necesary to free climb in place. second look at el ninio, where they didn't place the bolt to protect 13c climbing, hence you'll take a 60 ft whipper on a knifebalde. can you do that. tell me laddy, how many days did you spend on elcap working on a free route? do you even know what does it mean to free a route. have you ever climbed anything remotely resembling 13a, b c or anything in that range?

after spending several days on salathe i can tell you this: i would be really pissed if someone went and pouded pins on that route. as of june of last year it was a public knowledge that zodiak is a free route. you must be a complete moron to be oblivious to this fact. i just hope people will stop pouding pins on this one. there is plenty of stone left for nail-ups there.

btw, do your reading carefully. they hand placed pins on bella-vista, hence wicked long falls on 14a pitch protected by A4 gear. so think before dissing someone fuckstick throat callus sloafer and clown puncher.

 

This post belongs in some sort of cc.com classics list

[Lambone]

sorry, I'd rather spray about aid climbing then polotics or some other BS.

[Dru]

rbw1966 said:

I just find it funny that Dru calls someone else a 'big shot' in light of his endless chestbeating and cock-measuring. God help him if he ever needs a rescue and anyone on this board finds out.

 

9"

[Paco]

glassgowkiss said:

Paco said:

glassgowkiss said:

but once it goes free stay the fuck away with the hammer and pitons. as i said, i didn't even read dicklands pantsy-ass wine about the climb. but looking back at it he deserves the same bitch- slapping as the other guy.

darin, i somewhat agree with your statements, but.... i think it is lame when people go and nail free climbs. in 96 i witnessed 2 texans bashing pins on glowering spot pitch, because they thought hanging on a couple of rp's was too much for their fat asses. their argument was that the nose had only 1 free ascent....

and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer

 

Gotta disagree with you on the "if it goes free then stop nailing it" bullshit. The Huber's among others who are free climbing the hard aid lines are using pitons to protect the routes. Some or all of the gear is pre placed. Read the article by Alex Huber in the recent AAj. He placed pins on his free climb of something in the Dolomites. Also, I think the Hubers used pins while free climbing Zodiac on El Cap.

 

Just because a route goes free doesn't mean people shouldn't nail it.

what's your point donkey? punching your clown too much and going blindd on us? free climbing and protecting a free climb are 2 things. first of all i call a complete bullshit your whole statement. they left all hte gear necesary to free climb in place. second look at el ninio, where they didn't place the bolt to protect 13c climbing, hence you'll take a 60 ft whipper on a knifebalde. can you do that. tell me laddy, how many days did you spend on elcap working on a free route? do you even know what does it mean to free a route. have you ever climbed anything remotely resembling 13a, b c or anything in that range?

after spending several days on salathe i can tell you this: i would be really pissed if someone went and pouded pins on that route. as of june of last year it was a public knowledge that zodiak is a free route. you must be a complete moron to be oblivious to this fact. i just hope people will stop pouding pins on this one. there is plenty of stone left for nail-ups there.

btw, do your reading carefully. they hand placed pins on bella-vista, hence wicked long falls on 14a pitch protected by A4 gear. so think before dissing someone fuckstick throat callus sloafer and clown puncher.

 

The point glasgowdonkeyfacepunchass is that just because one person has free climbed an aid route doesn't mean that from then on it's "off limits" for someone else to pound in a pin on that route, especially if the free ascentionist used pitons to protect parts of the climb.

[RobBob]

God this thread is great.

[Lambone]

I agree with Paco.

[Dru]

I agree with RobBob

[bunglehead]

I agree with Dru!

[Scott_J]

Here ya go click on this for some discord

http://www.discord-aggregate.com/

[Dru]

Dru said:

rbw1966 said:

I just find it funny that Dru calls someone else a 'big shot' in light of his endless chestbeating and cock-measuring. God help him if he ever needs a rescue and anyone on this board finds out.

 

9"

 

ANAM 2004:

 

ROCKFALL, INADEQUATE PROTECTION, SPRAY OVERDOSE, TOO MUCH HORSECOCK, SNAFFLEHOUND ATTACK, WENT TOO LIGHT AND TOO SLOW, IMPROPER BIVI GEAR (Rasta), FORGOT HAMMER AND PINS, LEFT CELL PHONE AT HOME, BELIEVED INTERNET BETA, what else?

[glassgowkiss]

paco said

The point glasgowdonkeyfacepunchass is that just because one person has free climbed an aid route doesn't mean that from then on it's "off limits" for someone else to pound in a pin on that route, especially if the free ascentionist used pitons to protect parts of the climb.

 

yes it means exactly that. and the pitons were left in place for the following ascents.

[gnibmilc]

Lambone said:

do you really think a sawed off pin with one or two firm taps is going to even make you fart when it pulls?

ummm..what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

 

THAT MEANS THAT I THINK THAT THE PLACEMENTS ON C3 ARE OFTEN BODY WEIGHT ONLY. WHY WOULD YOU BOUNCE TEST THEM? OFTEN THEY JUST RIP WITHOUT STRESSING YOUR INTESTINES ENOUGH TO CAUSE YOU TO PASS GAS PAST YOUR PYLORIC VALVE. WHO GIVES A HOOT WHICH ONE FAILS WHEN YOU GIVE IT A BOUNCE TEST? I CARE WHICH ONE GETS ME TO WHERE I'M GOING WITHOUT SUBJECTING MYSELF TO A FALL ONTO A STATIONARY OBJECT OR INTO A CORNER OR OVER A ROPE CUTTING SHARP EDGE. SPACE IS OKAY.

I am starting to think that either you haven't done much aid climbing, or haven't hammered many pitons.

DETECTIVE LAMBONE, YOU'RE ON TO ME! I DON'T CARRY NO STINKING HAMMER AND HAVE MY FUN AID CLIMBING WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT.

Two taps on a sawed off in a typical Yosemite pin scar is usually all you need to get a bomber bodyweight placement. AND IF YOU CAN TAP A SAWED OFF PIN IN FOR BODY WEIGHT ONLY (NO PROTECTION) PLACEMENT WHY NOT JUST USE A GADGET TO MOVE ON? BEAT OUT POCKETS ARE GREAT FOR HOOKS, YEAH?

Lots of times you don't even need to hammer the pin at all, just shove it in there...

YES SIR...TELL ME MORE.

 

Look Socrates, I have taught a bunch of aid climbing courses, and taught several of my friends how to aid climb. Not once in that process did a hammer ever appear, not once was it ever advocated that they should invest in a hammer or pitons at first.

GREAT, NOW SPRAY LIKE YOU TEACH!!!!!

I have personaly only nailed pitons on three aid climbs that I have done. I climbed only clean routes for 6 or 7 years before I nailed my fist pin on an aid route (mountains not included).

 

AND LOOK AT YOU...YOU DEVELOPED NICELY DIDN'T YOU. DON'T YOU THINK YOUR APPROACH WAS A GOOD ONE? WHY NOT ADVOCATE IT? THE REALLY STRONG GUYS AND GIRLS ARE GOING TO FIGURE OUT NAILING WITHOUT READING THIS STUFF. LONGS' BOOK AND HELP FROM A FRIEND WILL DO THE TRICK. FOLKS READING THIS STUFF SHOULD BE OUT CLEAN CLIMBING UNTIL THEY GET SAFELY SHUT DOWN ON SOMETHING TOUGHER THAN ZODIAC.

 

Beginner wall climbers are going to contiune to get on the Zodiac, and that is fine.

 

AND I THINK RICARDOS POOR STYLE NAILING WAS OFFSET BY HIS VISION, AND MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO MAKE HIM NEITHER A HERO NOR A ZERO, BUT INSTEAD ABOUT AVERAGE FOR HIS LEVEL OF GUMPTION. HE PROBABLY FUCKED UP IN HIS EUPHORIC STUPOR REGARDING THE GEAR TROPHIES. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

 

It is often considered the esiest route on El Cap. If I were coaching a first timer who was jumping on the Zodiac, I would advise them to climb some obscure line and learn to pound a good pin and head where it won't piss anyone off. People getting on a route like Zodiac should know how to use a hammer and pound a piton without over driving it, as well as place copperheads. If they don't then they are either kidding themselves, or resigning to learn the hard way when they need to. CALL IT THE ADVENTURE WAY. FOR GOD SAKE MAN, HAVE YOU SEEN THE HIGHBALL BOULDER PROBLEMS KIDS ARE CLIMBING THESE DAYS? YOU THINK RISKING A WHIP INTO SPACE IS MORE SERIOUS, STUPID OR NAIVE THAN HIGHBALL BOULDERING OR SOLOING 5TH CLASS MOUNTAIN ROUTES? DROP THE EGGS LAMBONE.

 

These skills are part of the game of wall climbing. Zodiac is a route that can be climbed clean, but everyone knows that a clean ascent is highly relient on fixed gear. Should that gear not be there and you want to finish the route, then you will need a hammer, it is as simple as that.

NO IT'S NOT. TRY IT. IT TAKES A LOT LONGER, BUT, YOU CAN GET UP A ZODIAC C3F PITCH WITHOUT A HAMMER AND WITH THE FIXED GEAR RIPPED...BEEN THERE...TAKES A LONG TIME...NOT CERTAIN OUTCOME....HARD WORK...CHEATING REQUIRED. REAL AID CLIMBERS, THE NAILING VARIETY, NEED TO KEEP SOME OF THE ROUTE IN SHAPE FOR US NON-HAMMER BEARING FOOLS, YES...

If people don't want to be exposed to this risk then they should do the Nose, Salathe, or Tripple Direct (TOO HARD FOR ME!!!!!!!!). Even Lurking Fear, but then you still might need a head or two.

WHAT RISK! EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO DOWN RAPPING? "WASTING TIME" NOT ATTAINING A ROUTE? DON'T PREACH YOUR WIMPY SIDE! CHEST BEAT ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS TO SET A HOOK IN A COPPER HEAD THAT HAD LOST IT'S WIRE.

 

Personally I would rather see people learn to use pitons properly before jumping on any El Cap route that might need a piton. YOU THINK YOU DIDN'T LEARN PROPERLY? BULL. I speak from my own inexperience here. People who have never aided on their own pitons tend to bash the hell out of them, either fixing them, or creating alot of damage when trying to clean them. SO KNOWING WHAT IS A KEY PLACEMENT FOR PERSONNEL PROTECTION DOESN'T FACTOR INTO YOUR PHILOSOPHY?

 

You also seem to thing I'm advocating nailing pins in offset alien placements or bomber cam hook placements that will hold 99% of the time. No, wrong...you and I arn't even talking about the same thing here...do you have any idea what I am talking about?

 

NOPE, I DON'T. I THINK YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE "POINTS OF PROTECTION" FROM PLACEMENTS FOR "UPWARD PROGRESS ONLY" IN YOUR PHILOSOPHY. THEN I WILL KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

Lastly, to claim that the Zodiac is in some sort of "natural state" is to admit that you haven't climbed it recently.

THAT WAS THE JOKE PART...IT IS BEAT. ...WASPS ARE A BIGGER CONCERN THAN FINDING THIN PLACEMENTS. THE HUBER THING IS A.... It is a contrived clip-up, no more no less. It's natural state is old school A5 Charlie Porter Style. Now it is covered in bolts and big fat trenched head placements, which is a whole 'nother issue. SO WHAT'S UP? YOU RECOGNIZE THE SYMPTOM, BUT NOT THE CAUSE?

The Hubers free climb is a squeeze job with new bolts and anchors all over the place to the right and left of the route

 

HMMM....CAN YOU DRAW A PARALLEL BETWEEN ENCOURAGING FOLKS TO STRIVE FOR SUPERHUMAN HARD FREE CLIMBING GOALS AND ENCOURAGING NORMAL PEOPLE TO STRIVE FOR REALLY HARD CLEAN AND RELATIVELY SAFE AID CLIMBING GOALS./OBJECTIVES?????

 

They had to remove a bunch of bomber fixed heads to use the dug out trenches as finger pockets. To call that anything resembeling a "natural state" is just a load of crap.

 

YEP. SORRY FOR THE SUBTLE NATURE OF THE JOKE...GOT NO KIDS EITHER.

 

People arguing over the preservation of the Natural Beauty of the Zodiac are really a joke in my opinion.

 

YOUR ONTO THAT JOKE, BUT THEN YOU JUST IMPLIED IT'S A SHAME THAT PORTER'S ROUTE IS GONE. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NEXT LINE WOULD YA. HELP DRAW THE LINE IN THE SAND BETWEEN WHAT IS OKAY AND WHAT IS LAME. No matter what anybody thinks, people from around the world are going to continue nailing a hand full of beat out pin scars until they take 1.5 inch angles, just like the Shield. Yeah I wish it was different, but thats reality. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WISH. BLOW YOUR NOSE, PULL UP YOUR PANTS, AND SPRAY ABOUT IT.

 

Either way you argue the point people will allways disagree with you, I used to be a clean-aid nazi...going about like Will, slamming other people for nailing pins on routes that go clean.

 

I THINK YOU OUGHT TO GET BACK A LITTLE CLOSER TO WILL. And I got twice as much shit for that (SUCK IT UP...)...so now I am admitting that I had to pound some pitons and that I don't feel too bad about it, I wish I had been able to do it clean, but I made a decision and I'm fine with it. SO AM I....EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO DO IT WHEN YOU KNOW IT ISN'T NECESARY. If some gumby wants to take that as their own excuse to go nail on clean routes than so be it...nobody is perfect. BULL!

 

Sorry I am so grumpy, but it is late...

 

My spray point/question was really simple. Is IT better SPRAY style to adovocate clean climbing and to encourage folks to LEAVE the freaking hammer back home? Okay, I really do think your are a puss for bringing a hammer on your solo climb of Zodiac too. Especially with all of your experience. Step up! I'm mostly just jerking your chain, but, I do believe that especially around here, the slant should be toward hammerless aid climbing...and that is my spray. so one other thing Plato...if I were Socretes, would that mean I'd get to take your temperature tonight? and one more thing yet...i lead a group of Tacoma Mountaineers up AND down Glacier peak via the Kennedy Glacier route one summer. We had no hammers, only adzes. I guess i need to find and read the glacier peak story...does that explain your conversion to a born again nailer? and jesus, how do you clowns ever sleep, eat or work with all this bitching?

[Dru]

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