Matp, Pope I'll start it off!

[RuMR]

Sphinx said:

RuMR said:

You know sphinxakaTheGuyEveryOneHates? I get the impression that he digs bolts and sportclimbing...yet, you know what, i don't see countless Richard Simmons postings implying that trad climbers are fags or spineless or suck or whatever.

That can easily be remedied.....

 

NO!! STAY ON THE HIGH ROAD!!!!

[pope]

DCramer said:

pope said:

I'm not accusing you of being involved in these climbs or supporting their development, ..[edit]

 

From an earlier post in this thread:

pope said:While you may be annoyed about the way Dwayner ridicules sport climbers, you must admit that your list of transgressions would exist regardless of Dwayner's electronic opinions.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Let's move on.

 

There is a difference between "a list of your transgressions" and "your list of transgressions". When you started the thread, you listed a number of facts about the current state of bolting. That is "your list of transgressions". They are not your transgressions, just your list. Get it?

[DCramer]

Cpt.Caveman said:

My opinions below.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”.

 

Of course it's not the case. Nobody has to follow a set of rules to discuss what they think, want, prefer, dislike, etc. I think that yes there were some accusatory comments made and they were not nonsense. It just seems that some of the people here don't agree with you sometimes and have obviously made comments you dislike or would rather not be seen here. Perhaps there was an exchange in the past that left others with a sour taste in their mouth. But that doesn't mean that their opions and comments should be cast aside.

 

Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here?

 

They might be out climbing. Dislike the internet. Or could care less about rock police enforcement. They may or may not seem to feel the need to ask a "climbing community" of communities that can't even agree. Again I get the impression you might have all the answers by reading this discussion. SO then it makes it a discusion of what you are going to do and why. Not really a discussion.

 

I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Bolting debates, discussion, topic and flame wars might be a thing of neverending sparring.

 

[DCramer]

pope said:

DCramer said:

pope said:

I'm not accusing you of being involved in these climbs or supporting their development, ..[edit]

 

From an earlier post in this thread:

pope said:While you may be annoyed about the way Dwayner ridicules sport climbers, you must admit that your list of transgressions would exist regardless of Dwayner's electronic opinions.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Let's move on.

 

There is a difference between "a list of your transgressions" and "your list of transgressions". When you started the thread, you listed a number of facts about the current state of bolting. That is "your list of transgressions". They are not your transgressions, just your list. Get it?

 

[mattp]

Cpt.Caveman said:

I believe Flamewars, bolt chopping do in fact help things out sometimes. It's a world of insanity.

 

I agree with both of these statements, Cavey. Flamewars and bolt chopping DO help sometimes. I would put it even stronger: they may be absolutely necessary sometimes. But they are not necessarily the ONLY answer to the issue.

 

It is a world of insanity, to be sure. Why else are we all trading insults on the internet instead of celebrating all of our uniquely individual inner peace and beauty and celebrating the beautiful endeavor that we have come to know as rock climbing?

[Sphinx]

Cuz human beings like conflict and strife. It's why there have always been, and will always be, wars. It's why humans have emotions leading them to want to beat each other up. Why people watch boxing for entertainment.

[Jopa]

Sphinx said:

Cuz human beings like conflict and strife. It's why there have always been, and will always be, wars. It's why humans have emotions leading them to want to beat each other up. Why people watch boxing for entertainment.

 

I disagree. Humans don't like conflict or strife; it is just necessary when one imposes there will upon another. War exists because the average person lacks the intellectual ability to reach mutual understanding and provide communitcatively rational arguments. Wanting to beat up someone else is again the direct result of intellectual incapacity.

 

I think the point here is that some people can't discuss this issue without letting their emotions completely take over, which results in name calling and other playground type bantor. A discussion that has an aim of reaching mutual understanding requires capable actors; something which is lacking on this site.

[Sphinx]

Jopa said:

Humans don't like conflict or strife; it is just necessary when one imposes there will upon another. War exists because the average person lacks the intellectual ability to reach mutual understanding and provide communitcatively rational arguments.

 

Bullshit. Aggression is built-in. It has nothing to do with 'lack of mutual understanding'. Wait, let me guess. You're liberal.

[allthumbs]

well, there goes the thread

[Sphinx]

It's mattp's fault. He and cavey started it!

[mattp]

Sphinx and Jopa sounds they should take sociology classes. Here's the syllabus: read The Naked Ape (Desmond Moris arguing that people are inherently combative and violent) or So Human an Animal (Rene Dubois arguing that we are essentially non-violent in our basic nature), then come back and tell us what you think.

 

Meanwhile, back to the program already in progress....

[allthumbs]

well anybody that isn't a guru climber should stay the hell outta this thread. only the big boys are worthy. that goes for you too cavey.

[Sphinx]

Desmond Moris is correct.

[sk]

I AM NOT READING THIS WHOLE THRED JUST BECAUSE IT WAS MOVED TO SPRAY

[Jopa]

mattp said:

Sphinx and Jopa sounds they should take sociology classes. Here's the syllabus: read The Naked Ape (Desmond Moris arguing that people are inherently combative and violent) or So Human an Animal (Rene Dubois arguing that we are essentially non-violent in our basic nature), then come back and tell us what you think.

 

Meanwhile, back to the program already in progress....

 

My intent was not to digress the thread. My point was that debating the bolting issue requires capable actors who truly wish to understand all sides, rather than just having the prevailing argument regardless of truth.

 

I certainly want to understand Dwayner's point of view, as well as Pope's, Mattp's, DCramer's, and everyone else's for that matter. But if everyone is just out to "win" the debate then what is the point of having the discussion in the first place?

 

 

[EWolfe]

Sphinx said:

 

Bullshit. Aggression is built-in. It has nothing to do with 'lack of mutual understanding'. Wait, let me guess. You're liberal.

 

Thanks a lot, Sphinx. You are a part of this getting moved.

[Sphinx]

MisterE said:

Sphinx said:

 

Bullshit. Aggression is built-in. It has nothing to do with 'lack of mutual understanding'. Wait, let me guess. You're liberal.

 

Thanks a lot, Sphinx. You are a part of this getting moved.

Did I hurt your feelings? T'was the destiny of the thread anyhow.

[EWolfe]

Sphinx said:

MisterE said:

Sphinx said:

 

Bullshit. Aggression is built-in. It has nothing to do with 'lack of mutual understanding'. Wait, let me guess. You're liberal.

 

Thanks a lot, Sphinx. You are a part of this getting moved.

Did I hurt your feelings? T'was the destiny of the thread anyhow.

 

Nah, I don't give a shit.

I am glad the moderators are keeping that forum fairly up and up though.

[allthumbs]

WHY DID THIS THREAD GET MOVED TO SPRAY? IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SERIOUS AND IMPORTANT AND NOW IT'S ANOTHER PIECE OF WHALE DRECK TO BE SPEWED UPON WITH IRREVERENCE. FUCK THIS SHIT

 

sphinx, you need to chill once in awhile

[Cpt.Caveman]

DCramer said:

Cpt.Caveman said:

My opinions below.

 

I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”.

 

Of course it's not the case. Nobody has to follow a set of rules to discuss what they think, want, prefer, dislike, etc. I think that yes there were some accusatory comments made and they were not nonsense. It just seems that some of the people here don't agree with you sometimes and have obviously made comments you dislike or would rather not be seen here. Perhaps there was an exchange in the past that left others with a sour taste in their mouth. But that doesn't mean that their opions and comments should be cast aside.

 

Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here?

 

They might be out climbing. Dislike the internet. Or could care less about rock police enforcement. They may or may not seem to feel the need to ask a "climbing community" of communities that can't even agree. Again I get the impression you might have all the answers by reading this discussion. SO then it makes it a discusion of what you are going to do and why. Not really a discussion.

 

I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.."

 

Bolting debates, discussion, topic and flame wars might be a thing of neverending sparring.

 

 

Hey I guess you proved my point!

[Figger_Eight]

I would guess Sphinxter is responsible for getting 2/3 of all posts moved to

Spray

[allthumbs]

sphinx = the new trask

 

i relinquish the crown

[Sphinx]

I accept the position. 'The New Trask' would make a PERFECT title.

[j_b]

as an outsider to the pope/dwayner versus darryl argument about the use of hammers on NA overhang and getting to read about it on this site, i'd like to suggest a couple of things. it appears that the original interaction was based on a misunderstanding about the intents of both parties involved (using hammers on a clean climb and the rock cop thing). over time it seems things got worse as the story and ensuing interaction were told and repeated to/by a number of 3rd parties and as the personalities/egos of individuals played off one another.

 

i think it may be important to keep the above in mind as you guys are discussing this issue so that unnecessary luggage does not get in the way of a healthy argument.