Matp, Pope I'll start it off!

[cracked]

Dwayner sez:

It seems that you were in need of a little history lesson plus some exposure to a perspective with which you might not have been familiar.

Yup, I certainly haven't been exposed to your perspective! You need to be more outspoken, Dwayner.

Dwayner sez:

Your words, not mine. That kind of attitude won't take you far but I assume you are just joking.

Too many people have that attitude, apparently including your buddy Dope, uh, Pope.

Dwayner also sez:

Good luck, dude!

With what?.....dude.

 

[Dwayner]

I thought you were going to bed?

 

"Good luck"....explanation/meaning: I hope things go well for you in life, whatever you choose to do.

 

"dude"......explanation: derivation: from my California homeland. "guy", "man", "individual"

 

"Good luck, dude".....no need to read anything in to it other than Dwayner's best wishes to you.

[DCramer]

pope said:

And the third question must certainly be, "What the hell is a mudracker?" I don't see the potential for a handful of climbers who participate in these electronic discussions to come to any kind of consensus, and the notion that their discussions will in some way impact the broader spectrum of Washington climbers seems dubious. So far, what we're hearing from you (that this site has potential and that uncivil discourse has a negative impact on climbing and access )also sounds like a broken record, as do your admonishments to the anti-bolt side to "knock off the nonsense." Some of the most vile and threatening language we've heard has come from bolting advocates (as Figger8 points out) and it's been this way since the first discussion.

 

Let's just take one viewpoint that at first sounds like it might be common to many of us: no bolting next to cracks. Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements. As weak as I think the sport-climbers' approach to ascending cliffs like Exit 38 is, I have an even greater problem with what amounts to bolting cracks at Index. We don't even have a grip on this problem, so how are we ever going to retard the pace of sport routes on blank/crackless walls?

 

I know it sounds gloomy, but I think bolt infestation is here to stay and to grow. The notion that rap-bolting is an acceptable means of route establishment, the recognition that comes from "pioneering" such routes and seeing your name in the guidebook, the simplicity with which one can scrub and drill on rap.....and finally, the sort of democratic nature of this practice, whereby anybody with a drill and fresh batteries can let their energies go crazy......all of these aspects of modern climbing suggest to me that bolting is like a machine, like a disease which can't be remedied.

 

All I can do is climb in good style, be a good example to younger climbers, and try to protect cliffs like Castle Rock from today's insanity.

 

While you may be annoyed about the way Dwayner ridicules sport climbers, you must admit that your list of transgressions would exist regardless of Dwayner's electronic opinions. That is all they amount to and you're welcome to ignore them. You probably won't catch me insulting sport climbers on this site. I don't have the time.

 

Having said all of this, I'm eager to hear some of this civil and serious discussion.

 

LOL Well I was typing fast and meant to say 'muckraker" as a kinder and gentler version of shit stirrer which is how you have desribed your posting on cc.com.

 

Great replies by the way!

[JayB]

Hey - the thoughtful discussion and considerate replies lasted for at least 1/2 a day before the cc.com equivalent of "Groundhog Day" materialized once again. I had hoped for more, but this might be a new record. Let's build on that momentum - in a different thread, when the time comes.

 

 

[EWolfe]

I have to agree with Pope on the issue of bolting next to cracks. There are plenty of climbs in the world, without bolting cracks. Hell, I sport climb, have bolted routes and boulder, but there is no reason for bolting cracks. I think that is a reasonable and just place to start.

 

 

Pope said: All I can do is climb in good style, be a good example to younger climbers .

 

Though we may disagree on what that means (as independent thinkers often do ), I whole heartedly agree with this sentiment.

 

 

[Attitude]

cracked said:

Dwayner sez:

It seems that you were in need of a little history lesson plus some exposure to a perspective with which you might not have been familiar.

Yup, I certainly haven't been exposed to your perspective! You need to be more outspoken, Dwayner.

Dwayner sez:

Your words, not mine. That kind of attitude won't take you far but I assume you are just joking.

Too many people have that attitude, apparently including your buddy Dope, uh, Pope.

Dwayner also sez:

Good luck, dude!

With what?.....dude.

The adults are trying to have a discussion here. You two please run outside and play.

[Sphinx]

Attitude said:

cracked said:

Dwayner sez:

It seems that you were in need of a little history lesson plus some exposure to a perspective with which you might not have been familiar.

Yup, I certainly haven't been exposed to your perspective! You need to be more outspoken, Dwayner.

Dwayner sez:

Your words, not mine. That kind of attitude won't take you far but I assume you are just joking.

Too many people have that attitude, apparently including your buddy Dope, uh, Pope.

Dwayner also sez:

Good luck, dude!

With what?.....dude.

The adults are trying to have a discussion here. You two please run outside and play.

When did you ever contribute to a 'discussion'? I don't mean pagetops, either.

[cracked]

ScottP said:

A point to consider is that any moderating should be done with consideration for the poster being moderated. Diplomatically explaining to them (via a PM) why their post isn't appropriate and is, therefore, being removed would probably go a long way toward maintaining civility as opposed to just jerking the post without. (When appropriate, go so far as to give them the opprotunity to edit before removal?)

Stepping on fragile egos breeds malcontent (as if that needed to be said.)

I imagine that perhaps this is already being done by some moderators.

Every time a post of mine has been deleted, I've gotten a PM from a moderator. This is already happening, at least in my experience.

[DCramer]

pope said:

Let's just take one viewpoint that at first sounds like it might be common to many of us: no bolting next to cracks. Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements. As weak as I think the sport-climbers' approach to ascending cliffs like Exit 38 is, I have an even greater problem with what amounts to bolting cracks at Index. We don't even have a grip on this problem, so how are we ever going to retard the pace of sport routes on blank/crackless walls?

 

Mister E I assume you mean you agree with the above quote from pope, afterall everyone has agreed that bolting next to cracks isn't a good thing.

 

Countless bolted cracks at Index! A scandal! Countless is a whole lotta routes. The are over 1,250 pitches at Index. Mister E please show us your listing of the countless bolted cracks. Pope you join in too. Along with your never ending (ie countless) list please list the approx. date of the offense.

 

[babnik]

fuck there is one next to zoom.

[TimL]

DCramer said:

I was a bit frustrated today when I open the cc.com page. The same old goddamn nonesense!

 

The sad thing is that access is a concern for all of us. The first question is has the mudracker's behavior helped their cause? The answer is it hasn't. Some examples since they started posting:

 

· Route production in the Icicle continues unabated.

 

· A new sport area consisting of 50-60 new routes has been developed.

 

· At Index a new route variation was bolted a section of rock that had already been climbed free onsite with nuts years earlier.

 

· At Darrington many new routes have been installed.

 

· At 38 scores of new routes have been created

 

The second question is can bolting get out of control? Certainly. Should we care? Of course. Are the items in the above list good or bad? Both? Clearly it depends on who is doing the evaluating. I happen to think it's a mixed bag.

 

I think most people putting up new routes are pretty good guys and would welcome constructive feedback. Over the past several years I have been in many arguments with people about bolting most of the time I was on the anti-bolting position. To the extent that this site was filled with "bolters are pussies" types of comments it was impossible to appeal to.

 

If Jon and Timmy wish to have this site be a place of genuine discussion they will need to moderate with a much heavier hand. If those who argue against bolting want to be heard and have a real impact, they need to be honest and willing to compromise. This site's potential for both benefit and harm is too great to allow the nonsense to continue.

 

After visiting Leavenworth this weekend and stopping past some of the new crags I was appalled at what was going on. Bolts next to cracks and perfectly good gear placements are unacceptable. Not to mention the small contrived, grid bolted routes that are being but up all around the Icicle. Really, what the fuck is going on? I’ve always thought some people and their stance against bolts was radical, but after seeing what I saw this weekend, I would not be surprised if you start find piles of chopped bolts at the basses of cliffs. I have a lot of respect for some of those that are putting up routes in the Icicle and they do it well. Then again I think there are others that should take their trash to areas like Exit 32 were it belongs.

 

And the bolted thing next to at Index that Darryl mentioned, hopefully it won’t be around much longer. Another pure disregard for the ethics and style of the area. Not to mention a slap in the face to the first ascentionist.

 

[DCramer]

TimL - Let's bring it back to Index. Have you noticed countless bolted cracks? If you can come up with over ten list them!

 

Let's not have thread drift here.

 

 

[RuMR]

ummm....there's a crappy 1/4"er to get to the crack on the second pitch of city park...hahahahaha...the horror

[DCramer]

pope said:

The notion that rap-bolting is an acceptable means of route establishment, the recognition that comes from "pioneering" such routes and seeing your name in the guidebook, the simplicity with which one can scrub and drill on rap.....

 

Sounds like a great motivator to me. Is it true? I’ll admit it the first time I saw my name in Climbing I bought the issue. But as real motivator it’s not very potent. Back in the late ‘70s early ‘80s very few people really climbed at Index. The fun of exploring the area was a big draw. At least for me pioneering recognition and seeing my name isn’t really a motivating force. Somehow I do not believe that it motivated Greg Child, Andy Deklerk, Greg Collum, Jon Nelson or Greg Olsen either but I cannot speak for them. The first three have FA all over the world including A5 El Cap routes and 8,000m peaks. Your claim doesn’t seem to convincing at least as far as Index but it does get pretty close to spray. I know very few of the Leavenworth guys very well but from what I have seen they are not motivated by perosnal recognition. Brian Burdo I know a bit better. If he was motivated by personal fame from derived from FAs he certainly would have come out by now with his long overdue Si guide!

 

BTW it was in the early70’s that rap cleaning first began at Index. Rap bolting started a while later but was firmly in place before the advent of electric drill. The electric drill did speed things up but its biggest impact was that it brought larger diameter bolts into use.

 

[Dwayner]

DCramer said:

Let's bring it back to Index. Have you noticed countless bolted cracks?

 

 

Dana's Arch

 

Numbah 10

[RuMR]

Countless, truly approaching infinity...

[mattp]

Get a grip!!!

 

Just yesterday, Pope complained that the moderators on this board would never permit him to have his discussion of "route restoration," (his euphamism for pulling bolts) because they don't want him to wage his campaign against rap bolting. But look at this thread, the one that was started after at least a half a day's banter back and forth about whether or not we might one day be able to have a civil discussion about bolting issues: Pope and Dwayner have once again been the main motivators in steering the discussion away from any thoughtful consideration of real issues.

 

Pope and Dwayner find amusement in "stirring the pot" when they ridicule Cracked for his defense of sport climbing, but they really lose it when they try to say he isn't old enough to have any valid perspective, and he therefor can't tell them anything about ethics or history. Yes, Dwayner is correct to note there was an active climbing scene at Smith Rock State Park before sport climbing took hold, and it IS beautiful, but WTF? He (Dwayner) says he might support having Smith Rock State Park closed to climbing because it hasn't been developed in what he thinks is a responsible way. Is that the "perspective" that he thinks Crack lacks? One of America's most popular climbing areas should be closed because Dwayner doesn't like bolts? Pope, in response to Cracked's pointing out that in fact every young climber out of the gym does not go out and buy a drill and start putting in bolts can only offer a sneer? Is that evidence of a willingness to have his reasonable discussion of "route restoration?" After three years where the anti-bolt jihad warriors have been saying that sport climbers are pussies and rock rapists, that they are going to show up at the crags with their crowbars and if they see some punk with a drill he better run, and generally going out of their way to make these discussions as ascerbic as possible, does Pope's assertion that the most vile and threatening language in these discussions has come from the "bolti ng advocates" reflect any measure of reality?

 

Then we get to this thing about bolted cracks. Daryl has made the point, I think, that this malignant cancer is not as bad as the anti-bolt hyperbole would have us believe, but this is a whole separate issue that I'll ignore it just now. The significant point that I wish to note is the mere fact that Mister E thought to bring it into this thread, as if there were some controversy about it. As far as I can remember, there has not been anybody on this board who has advocated bolting cracks or complained when someone wanted to removed a line of bolts that had been placed next to a crack, in three years of cc.com. Even if it is true that some rap-bolting vandal bolted a crack at Index recently, why are we arguing about bolted cracks in this thread?

 

Once again, I would ask how it might be that we should moderate these kinds of discussions. ScottP offers a reasonable suggestion (a practice that I have tried with almost no success, but it is a good idea none-the-less), but what else might anybody suggest?

[DCramer]

That’s at most 16%(2/1,250) of the routes at Index.

 

Let’s put the whole thing in context by quoting pope.

 

Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements.

 

Dana’s Arch (20 years ago)

The first section was TR’d at solid 5.12. We went back and the damage to the rock caused by pitons had reduced the difficulty to 5.11. We thought that a few bolts were better than continued blasting of the rock. So we added a few bolts. Several bolts have been added since we first bolted it and I believe an anchor as well. I wanna say that we ended the free section with an existing thread.

When it was bolted it could not have been led cleanly. Although the free solo was/is an option. Since the bolts were place climbers have continued to damage the rock reducing the difficulty even further. To me it seems now in the 5.10/11 range. I did witness on party still nailing it this past spring. Is Dana’s Arch easily protected now? I am not sure; however, since it clearly wasn’t at the time it was bolted it shouldn’t count as an example of pope’s claim. It was also hand drilled and we never reportd it to anyone. Whether you agree with the decision to place the bolts or not this clearly is an outlier not fitting in with the general pattern of bolting issues today.

 

Years later a bolt appeared on the short vertical crack above the initial arch and some creative scarring was employed to facilitate a free ascent. I argued against such tactics.

 

Numbah 10 (15 years ago)

I wasn’t involved in this route. But it is a great climb. When first climbed RPs were placed at the start. Do the RPs offer reasonable protection? I am not convinced they do. Pete Mayfield and Russ Clune have climbed it and both thought it was a good climb. Just like Dana’s Arch the route received several nailing ascents after being bolted. I encourage all the 5.12 tradsters to go give it a no bolt try. Be fair and don’t preinspect!

 

[Dru]

2/1250 = 0.0016 = one sixth of one percent

 

200/1250 = 16%

 

[DCramer]

Thanks Dru – left out a decimal point!

[cracked]

This entire 'discussion' left a bad taste in my mouth. There is absolutely no point in any attempts at 'serious discussion' on this board. A few people refuse to reasonably debate issues, and every attempt at a new thread is crashed. There is truly no point in arguing, no consensus will ever be reached.

 

Even if the majority of people want to have a serious thread, there will always be a few jackasses who will crash that thread. It's like trying to argue religion. Logic will not work, for the evangelists 'know' they're right. I'll probably still take Dwayner and Pope's bait occasionally, but I'll do my best to stay out of it. I've got better things to do.

 

Pope, your 'setting an example' failed.

[Peter_Puget]

Matt offer some suggestions. I have not deleted or changed anything on this thread although I was sorely tempted. I have deleted several other posts in this forum and have not notified the poster. They knew they were spraying.

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

Hang in there Cracked

[pope]

DCramer said:

That’s at most 16%(2/1,250) of the routes at Index.

 

Let’s put the whole thing in context by quoting pope.

 

Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements.

 

Dana’s Arch (20 years ago)

The first section was TR’d at solid 5.12. We went back and the damage to the rock caused by pitons had reduced the difficulty to 5.11. We thought that a few bolts were better than continued blasting of the rock. So we added a few bolts. Several bolts have been added since we first bolted it and I believe an anchor as well. I wanna say that we ended the free section with an existing thread.

When it was bolted it could not have been led cleanly. Although the free solo was/is an option. Since the bolts were place climbers have continued to damage the rock reducing the difficulty even further. To me it seems now in the 5.10/11 range. I did witness on party still nailing it this past spring. Is Dana’s Arch easily protected now? I am not sure; however, since it clearly wasn’t at the time it was bolted it shouldn’t count as an example of pope’s claim. It was also hand drilled and we never reportd it to anyone. Whether you agree with the decision to place the bolts or not this clearly is an outlier not fitting in with the general pattern of bolting issues today.

 

Years later a bolt appeared on the short vertical crack above the initial arch and some creative scarring was employed to facilitate a free ascent. I argued against such tactics.

 

Numbah 10 (15 years ago)

I wasn’t involved in this route. But it is a great climb. When first climbed RPs were placed at the start. Do the RPs offer reasonable protection? I am not convinced they do. Pete Mayfield and Russ Clune have climbed it and both thought it was a good climb. Just like Dana’s Arch the route received several nailing ascents after being bolted. I encourage all the 5.12 tradsters to go give it a no bolt try. Be fair and don’t preinspect!

 

Dana's Arch: I'm sure you meant well, but what you now have is a bolted crack. Ditto on #10. Implicit in your discussion is the idea that a new free climb with bolts is somehow better than an old aid climb that can be aided on nuts. I'm sure pleasure is to be found through either pursuit, but with the second practice......what you have is a bolted crack.

 

* #10

* 10 Percent

* Wipe

* Cunning Stunt (or did it get chopped)

* Dana's Arch (certainly makes the list)

* Some obscure pitch below the Narrow Arrow (remember, the one where Dwayner got a visit from the rock police?)

* A belay in the middle of pitch 1 of Japanese Gardens

 

Hey, what do you know? Maybe we can count the number of high-profile routes which are easily encountered by strolling down the lower wall path. I'm sure there are others.

[MysticNacho]

This is the most civil bolting debate I've read yet. It probably couldn't be any more civil, minus the personal attacks made by Cracked.

 

I think bolting next to cracks robs future generations of climbers of adventure. Just because you (and I say "you" in a general sense, not pointing at anyone) can't climb it or protect it with a bolt doesn't mean someone else who will come after you, and will be better than you, won't be able to climb it either.