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RuMR

Lame...Cave is now down and out...forever

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Sphinx said:

What exactly was their strategy? All I know is from what I've read in the mags about them.

playing a nice guy, trying to negotiate in good faith and be resonable. You can do it if there is level plain field. The truth is, that only through strong arm lobbying efforts we can keep climbing. every major battle was lost- Hueco, Cave rock, N carolina... the list goes on and on.

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As far as I know, from what I've seen in Washington, the Access Fund "strategy" at the local level has been to try to get climbers and land managers to work together, by setting up or at least attending and trying to help facilitate public meetings where there were user conflicts (e.g. Frenchmen's Coulee), making direct contact with land managers and encouraging them to plan for climbing wiht climbers' access in mind and, where possible, trying to get work projects going so that climbers could take direct responsibility for helping solve impact issues identified by the land managers. Personally, I don't think any of these strategies is wrong.

 

One problem they have had, and continue to have is that climbers are generally an unruly bunch, and there is a lot of petty infighting in the climbing community so we just can't seem to organize. I don't know how or whether they could have done better to change this, and I don't know how active or successful they have been in trying to effect changes in land management policy from the top levels of land management downward.

 

If you don't think they have been effective enough, that may or may not be a reason to withdraw your support. From my perspsective, the small annual membership fee is probably money well spent, and I wish more people would get involved.

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mattp said:

One problem they have had, and continue to have is that climbers are generally an unruly bunch, and there is a lot of petty infighting in the climbing community so we just can't seem to organize.

You sure about this? I can't think of any climbing-related debates we've had on this site. Dwhiner.

 

Seriously, though, you're exactly right, Matt. Climbers don't organize, historically. We're too individualistic. It's too bad, sometimes, though I certainly don't help. I hate groups, but sometimes it hurts more than it helps.

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about the "no fixed anchors...period" debate, I like the rule at beacon rock...only "natural" colored webbing. So you can sling stuff with green, brown, etc. I think that's a good compromise. There is no need for giant nests of red and orange and purple in the hills. If you are too retarted to find a place to rap from without neon rap slings pre-placed for you, then you shouldn't be out there.

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erik said:

you know the best thing about the future dwhiner, is that you wont be climbing, oh wait do you do so now? people will not be forced to listen to your jealous tirades about how sport climbing is wrong, shit man i have seen so many pitons and other types of trash that you old trad daddy left behind.

get a clue.

 

This guy is a "moderator"????

 

P.S. You don't know me, so don't act like you can speak for my actions ("oh wait do you do so [climb] now?") and motivations ("jealous tirades").

 

And by the way, I'm not making excuses for the pitons. They were a problem too....most of that went away with the clean-climbing revolution until it was seemingly forgotten. So pal....you get a clue.

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secondly i'd love to see some one climb those lines on gear...

 

i think that was his point. dont climb them.

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babnik said:

secondly i'd love to see some one climb those lines on gear...

 

i think that was his point. dont climb them.

you are so full of youself. it's obvious to me you can type on a computer much better then you climb.

moon.gif

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DWHINER

 

WHAT DOES ME BEING A MODARATOR HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? DOES THAT PRECLUDE ME FROM DISCUSSIONS? NOPE I DONT THINK SO.

 

SO WHEN I SEE YOU OUT CLIMBING, I MIGHT THINK OTHERWISE. SO I STILL DO NOT SEE HOW YOUR 1970'S ETHICS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH TODAYS? THEY EVOLVE WITH THE TIME. DEAL WITH IT. I HOPE TO BOLT YOUR FAVORITE SCRAMBLES SOON!

 

 

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Dwayner said:

erik said:

you know the best thing about the future dwhiner, is that you wont be climbing, oh wait do you do so now? people will not be forced to listen to your jealous tirades about how sport climbing is wrong, shit man i have seen so many pitons and other types of trash that you old trad daddy left behind.

get a clue.

 

This guy is a "moderator"????

 

P.S. You don't know me, so don't act like you can speak for my actions ("oh wait do you do so [climb] now?") and motivations ("jealous tirades").

 

And by the way, I'm not making excuses for the pitons. They were a problem too....most of that went away with the clean-climbing revolution until it was seemingly forgotten. So pal....you get a clue.

so get a clue yorself- don't tell me you have never rappel in your life? moon.gif as far as i know you have to leave at least a sling behind. unless you're so fucking honed you can downclimb every route out there. maybe you should go this weekend, do a Chiante Spire and downclimb fucking thing and prove us all wrong. your comment was a total wenk fest pal

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The issue at Cave was not really about bolts at all. Dwayner was either ignorant of this or he simply was forcing an opportunity to spew his nonsense. Either way "Dwayner" like actions are a disservice to the broader community. There have been several occasions when the governmental land managers have at the last minute changed their position due to behavior such as Dwayner’s. One specifically was in the development of the WA State umbrella climbing policy. The problem isn’t that the land managers are necessarily against bolting but see behavior such as Dwayner’s and think "heck easiest think is to end the debate by saying stopping the activity in question". The loud obnoxious voices trump the well behaved majority. To the extent Dwayner continually comments in a robotic non-responsive manner he is not participating in any discussion. If he is not participating, isn’t his presence here is merely giving him the opportunity to be a spoiler.

 

PP bigdrink.gif

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The issue at Cave was not really about bolts at all. Dwayner was either ignorant of this or he simply was forcing an opportunity to spew his nonsense.

 

T-R-O-L-L

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GG kiss is correct, it was purely motivated by one guy's idiotic self-righteous crusade, and it didn't only affect the caves, it affected ALL climbing in the ranger district. Thanks to that pompuous fuck you can't use chalk at Meadow Camp anymore. What does that have to do with bats? The ONLY people I've seen at the caves or Meadow Camp before the ban were climbers. We're unfairly being targeted because we're an easy target, we're highly visible. Meanwhile all of the petroglyphs that Dry Canyon off Skyliner was covered with have been all chipped away.

Fuck the Forest di-service.

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Peter_Puget said:

Actually no trol at all. Merely stating the obvious.

 

i was not talking about you, but dwayner. rolleyes.gif

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Peter_Puget said:

The issue at Cave was not really about bolts at all. Dwayner was either ignorant of this or he simply was forcing an opportunity to spew his nonsense. Either way "Dwayner" like actions are a disservice to the broader community. There have been several occasions when the governmental land managers have at the last minute changed their position due to behavior such as Dwayner’s. One specifically was in the development of the WA State umbrella climbing policy. The problem isn’t that the land managers are necessarily against bolting but see behavior such as Dwayner’s and think "heck easiest think is to end the debate by saying stopping the activity in question". The loud obnoxious voices trump the well behaved majority. To the extent Dwayner continually comments in a robotic non-responsive manner he is not participating in any discussion. If he is not participating, isn’t his presence here is merely giving him the opportunity to be a spoiler.

 

PP bigdrink.gif

I agree. FS did not care if there were bolts or not. As the matter of fact during the second meeting one of the managers said it was up to the climbing community to determine a way to protect. The issue was CLIMBING ITSELF. IT WAS OUR PRESENCE THERE.

so dwiner- get this, whether you like like it or not you will join the ranks of people effected by this. Even more. Climbers who normally would just limmit their activity just to sport climbing are going to venture more and more into the more remote areas.

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Now that cc.com has been brought to the attention of the world due to Becks politicizing by allowing/giving Dwayner continued opportunities to spew are we not giving him the rope with which we are hung?

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is this trhread about cave rock, skeletoncaves, both, neither, or dwayners ethics? huh? how come no one mentioned dan - yet? i heard he speed climbed some bolted cave route and his dog ate a bat.

 

winged snafflez snaf.gif

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bunglehead said:

GG kiss is correct, it was purely motivated by one guy's idiotic self-righteous crusade, and it didn't only affect the caves, it affected ALL climbing in the ranger district. Thanks to that pompuous fuck you can't use chalk at Meadow Camp anymore. What does that have to do with bats? The ONLY people I've seen at the caves or Meadow Camp before the ban were climbers. We're unfairly being targeted because we're an easy target, we're highly visible. Meanwhile all of the petroglyphs that Dry Canyon off Skyliner was covered with have been all chipped away.

Fuck the Forest di-service.

yes, lucky us Smith is a State Park and doesn't fall under a jurysdyction of FS.

It's ok for the FS to sell the land rights to mining and logging companies, it's ok to built system of roads to anable clearcutting or open pit mining. It's ok to have lakes of cyanide, according to them it's the proper use of the resource. madgo_ron.gif

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Dru said:

is this trhread about cave rock, skeletoncaves, both, neither, or dwayners ethics? huh? how come no one mentioned dan - yet? i heard he speed climbed some bolted cave route and his dog ate a bat.

 

winged snafflez snaf.gif

I think it's the access in general. In the past few years we found ourselves without a few very good places to climb. One more comment- so if Cave Rock is so fucking sacred why is a highway running through it not getting closed too? madgo_ron.gif I am sure roaring semi- truck adds a new twist to religious ceremonies. moon.gif simply i don't buy this religion shit in this case.

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One thing Timmy didn't mention was that we picked up an empty whiskey bottle (Jack Daniels) and a veeery stinky empty can of some malt liqour type shit. There was also a huge pile of burnt shit right in front of Boyd Cave. Forest Service has time to bother climbers, but they're too strapped to ticket vandals and dickhead who litter. Personally I think their name should reflect what they actually do: The Forest Resource Extraction Service

 

I said it before and I'll say it again. Fuck the Forest Service. And I really wanted to work for them when I was a kid. I thought that was a noble pursuit. I was way off.

 

mis-spelled Jack

Edited by bunglehead

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