Best value in draws and cams?

[David_Parker]

I climb mostly alpine and ice climb. I figure any new gear I buy should be light and easy to use in winter (gloved hands) conditions. Wire gates are light and supposedly good in winter. But what are the drawbacks? Are nutrinos really too small? I've also heard tech friends are lighter and just as good as camalots. TCU's for the smaller size? Considering price, weight and function, what are the best draws and cams to buy these days? (I ask this cause all my shit got ripped off and I need to replace it!)

[Sphinx]

David_Parker said:

I climb mostly alpine and ice climb. I figure any new gear I buy should be light and easy to use in winter (gloved hands) conditions. Wire gates are light and supposedly good in winter. But what are the drawbacks? Are nutrinos really too small? I've also heard tech friends are lighter and just as good as camalots. TCU's for the smaller size? Considering price, weight and function, what are the best draws and cams to buy these days? (I ask this cause all my shit got ripped off and I need to replace it!)

Neutrinos suck cause you can't clip em with gloves on. Tech Friends are NOT as good as Camalots.

[Coopah]

Biners for Ice? I go with Hotwires...neutrinos are too small for my gloved hands. Draws - I use 3 Yates screamers and then 3-4 tripled single runners.

Cams? I like my Camalots. BOMBER! And double up on the small cams with either TCU's or Aliens (just bought these). I laugh at those who say the camalots are too heavy (.5-1 lb more for a full rack). To those people I say get to the gym or stay home, watch football and

 

Edited September 3, 2003 by Coopah

[JayB]

Omega Pacific JC's (wiregate biners) are a good deal, seem to work as well as any other biner out there, and weigh in at 37g per biner.

 

You can buy them in lots of 10 or 20 at ($60 and $110-120 for either) at www.linkupgear.com

[dryad]

Check out Rock Empire.

[Rodchester]

Best Alpine Wiregate Biner

 

Trango's Flex cams are also nice and very strong. They can usually be picked up at a good price at Second Ascent in downtown Ballard.

[David_Parker]

Do you like wire gates on both ends of a draw or do like a bent gate at one end? Fuck rock empire. Tech friends do not have the range of a camalot per piece, but you get more in a set and they cost less and weigh less. So what's wrong with them? I have a couple of the trango wire gates and I like them! "Value" is taking ALL these things into consideration.

[Attitude]

Does anyone use the Wild Country Big Wire?

[Peter_Puget]

One advantage to Friends is that Friends, Clog cams and DMM all have the same cam sizes so you can mix and match and not screw up your sizing.

[Ursa_Eagle]

what's wrong with rock empire?

[Dru]

ditto HBs.

 

rock empire does give good value but not weight. dmms is pretty good for alpine weight wise. i mean i have camalots in bigger sizes but if i was gonna buy a whole rack right now i probably would get tech friends in the 2.5 and up and dmm in the smaller sizes

[Rodchester]

I have some older Trango cams and they are nice. But I also have a few of the new FlexCams and they rock.

 

Flexcams

 

Don't get me wrong, BD cams . But if you are talking value and weight, they are not #1.

 

Rock Empire cams are alright. Cheap, but something about them, that I can't put my finger on, makes me not like um.

 

Check out the Trango page:

 

"a large expansion range doesn’t reduce the number of cams you have to carry. If you want to place pro every 15 feet on a 150-foot pitch, you’ll need 10 cams, regardless of their expansion range."

 

Another, with BD name in place:

 

"Which brings us to weight. Take a look at a popular cam (BD), known for its expansion range, and compare it to our FlexCams™. In the popular (BD) hand size, this cam has 12% greater expansion range. That sounds great, until you look at the numbers and realize this is a whopping 3mm: the thickness of a tortilla. That same cam weighs 20% more than our comparable FlexCam™, meaning you can carry 10 FlexCams™ for every 8 of the “expansive” ones. We use a double-looped 12mm Ultratape™ sling, so you can clip in directly, at 4 inches or at 8 inches. That means you’ll rarely need a quick draw, which saves even more time and weight."

 

OK so weight is covered.

 

Strength?

 

Trango = 8kN–12kN (passive or active) .

 

"The cams lobes are CNC machined from 7075 aluminum extrusions, allowing us to control tolerances to a fraction of a millimeter. New for 2002 are full-strength, machined-in cam stops. While we don’t recommend placing cams in a fully open position, in the event that your cam walks into a wide spot and ends up fully opened, it won’t invert under load."

 

BD = 7kN–16kN.

 

Many BD cams are stronger, but not all of them. However, the Trangos are plenty strong.

 

Price?

 

Trango = $39.99

 

(and check them at Second Ascent, they are often cheaper)

 

BD = $49.95 - $112.50.

 

If you weoigh 300lbs and are worried about tortillas, get the BD.

 

If you are talking value and weight, get the Trangos. I am a fan..can you tell?

 

Good Luck Bro

 

 

 

[Dru]

my limited experience with Trango Flexcams is that they walk at the drop of a hat

[Rodchester]

I'll do my best not to drop my hat.

 

I have never had any problem with either the older version or the new FlexCams walking. I have has the older version for at about four years now. I certainly haven't noticed any difference between them and the BD, the HB, or Metolious.

 

[Coopah]

"The cams lobes are CNC machined from 7075 aluminum extrusions..."

This is also a harder grade aluminum which may (all other things being equal) have a higher possiblility to pull out from smoother rock vs. the softer 6000 series aluminum found on WC & BD to name a couple.

Just more info to consider...

Edited September 3, 2003 by Coopah

[Sphinx]

Rodchester said:

I have some older Trango cams and they are nice. But I also have a few of the new FlexCams and they rock.

 

Flexcams

 

Don't get me wrong, BD cams . But if you are talking value and weight, they are not #1.

 

Rock Empire cams are alright. Cheap, but something about them, that I can't put my finger on, makes me not like um.

 

Check out the Trango page:

 

"a large expansion range doesn’t reduce the number of cams you have to carry. If you want to place pro every 15 feet on a 150-foot pitch, you’ll need 10 cams, regardless of their expansion range."

 

Another, with BD name in place:

 

"Which brings us to weight. Take a look at a popular cam (BD), known for its expansion range, and compare it to our FlexCams™. In the popular (BD) hand size, this cam has 12% greater expansion range. That sounds great, until you look at the numbers and realize this is a whopping 3mm: the thickness of a tortilla. That same cam weighs 20% more than our comparable FlexCam™, meaning you can carry 10 FlexCams™ for every 8 of the “expansive” ones. We use a double-looped 12mm Ultratape™ sling, so you can clip in directly, at 4 inches or at 8 inches. That means you’ll rarely need a quick draw, which saves even more time and weight."

 

OK so weight is covered.

 

Strength?

 

Trango = 8kN–12kN (passive or active) .

 

"The cams lobes are CNC machined from 7075 aluminum extrusions, allowing us to control tolerances to a fraction of a millimeter. New for 2002 are full-strength, machined-in cam stops. While we don’t recommend placing cams in a fully open position, in the event that your cam walks into a wide spot and ends up fully opened, it won’t invert under load."

 

BD = 7kN–16kN.

 

Many BD cams are stronger, but not all of them. However, the Trangos are plenty strong.

 

Price?

 

Trango = $39.99

 

(and check them at Second Ascent, they are often cheaper)

 

BD = $49.95 - $112.50.

 

If you weoigh 300lbs and are worried about tortillas, get the BD.

 

If you are talking value and weight, get the Trangos. I am a fan..can you tell?

 

Good Luck Bro

 

 

I notice the extra expansion of the BDs, no matter what the competitors say. It becomes more noticable the smaller the cams get.

[jon]

A couple years ago I bought some of the Kong ultratop/wiregate draws with the wire gate and keylock gate. I was so happy with them that I have 12 now, and have bought a bunch of the same keylock biners. They are light as hell and the action on them is great, they don't get hung up on anything and it's like the rope just finds it's way into the biner. My friends have used them and think they are always blown away how nice they are to climb with. PMS sells them for $14 each I think.

[Rodchester]

Coopah:

 

I was always told (i'm no engineer) tht the difference in aluminum (say 600 to 7075) is not the sftenss, but the strength. For instance when the metal will break as opposed to bend.

 

Any metal guys get the ratings? Like I said, I'm not sure.

 

 

[jon]

Peter_Puget said:

One advantage to Friends is that Friends, Clog cams and DMM all have the same cam sizes so you can mix and match and not screw up your sizing.

 

I don't know about the Clog's, but although Friends and DMM have the same sizing they use a different numbering system, so if you do go this route make sure you look at actual size and not the number.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like these cams the most:

 

Metolius - 3 cams only when I get to less than green size. They walk less..

Wild Country Forged (workhorse that lasts forever!!). I am not worried about horizontal cracks - then I use tri cams.

 

BD = too heavy and way way too expensive. Plus place less cams in a pitch argument is what I stand by. They are pretty good at marketing people into their stuff (had me convinced for a number of years) but I don't buy it anymore.

 

Carabiners-

DMM prowire, BD wire (non neutrino). Somebody mentioned those kong biners above - they are good too.

 

Neutrinos suck for winter or anyone with big fingers. They suck for summer too as far as I am concerned they are not worth the money. Yes I can tell the difference between them and the prowire.

[Peter_Puget]

Jon - I believe that Friends Clog Cams and DDM use the same numbering system

[Coopah]

Hell all the more popular brand names all meet the minimum standards...find one (or two) you like & go for it! Just get out and climb and quit wasting time shoveling through all these posts crying about the camalots weighing too much (wimps) or brand x walks.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Coopah said:

Hell all the more popular brand names all meet the minimum standards...find one (or two) you like & go for it! Just get out and climb and quit wasting time shoveling through all these posts crying about the camalots weighing too much (wimps) or brand x walks.

 

I think these are the sort of things he wants to know tough guy

[mattp]

I have had problems using the wire gate 'biners in the winter where I rack ice screws directly to my harness with them and they unclip themselves so I inadvertently leave a screw behind at a belay. This has happened several times, and I have never had it happen with any other type of carabiner. I also do not like the aggressive gate hooks on the wire gate biners - especially for racking wired stoppers.

[ketch]

Rodchester said:

Coopah:

 

I was always told (i'm no engineer) tht the difference in aluminum (say 600 to 7075) is not the sftenss, but the strength. For instance when the metal will break as opposed to bend.

 

Coop

Your pretty close to right. All aluminum is soft and will tend to grab. The differant series tell us what the alloys are in the base metal. It is the temper (the " T-6" in 6061 T-6) that tells us how strong it should be. As a general rule 7000 series aluminum is stronger than 6000 series, but in some cases it corrodes more easily.

If the man treats the metal right and you keep it clean 7000 takes more abuse. another bennie is that it will deform a little more before just plain givin up.