minx Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 or rather, he doesn't like how i carry my rack. one of my favorite alpine buddies and i are at odds about how to carry stuff. i prefer most of my pro over my shoulders with a few misc things on my harness. he hates a gear sling and racks most everything on his harness. this obviously creates some headaches when we're swapping leads. how do you carry your pro? (save the "in my wallet" type of comments for spray) any suggestions for handling the situation in an efficient manner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Compared to racking on slings there is no efficient way to exchange gear from harness loops. After many partners over many years, I like to have a rack sling for the leader and the 2nd. When it is time to re-rack, whoever has the least gear on their sling passes it to the leader. This assumes that the second(s) are always racking gear in an organized fashion as they climb. Personal preference sure. But it has been the norm for most long term big wallers and alpine climbers I have climbed with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_w Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 On a sling. Maybe I'm a wimp or I have a crappy harness but I don't like the extra weight on my harness. The sling makes it easier when swapping gear and easier to adjust if you get in a chimney or wide crack. You can move the sling to your other side and out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 minx said: or rather, he doesn't like how i carry my rack. one of my favorite alpine buddies and i are at odds about how to carry stuff. i prefer most of my pro over my shoulders with a few misc things on my harness. he hates a gear sling and racks most everything on his harness. this obviously creates some headaches when we're swapping leads. how do you carry your pro? (save the "in my wallet" type of comments for spray) any suggestions for handling the situation in an efficient manner? AT LEAST YOU HAVE A RACK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 i prefer both options depending on what is at hand. for cragging on the harness and the rest goes on the sling. i figure whoever brings the rack dictates the option. you need to be flexable enough to handle all the sitmos. bug is righ on about the efficiceny. plus there is potential lest chance to drop your gear. be flexible. and i keep mine in the glove box! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted August 27, 2003 Author Share Posted August 27, 2003 i pointed out alpine buddy for a reason, we mostly do alpine routes together and very little cragging. i'm trying to be flexible but we spent an inordinate amount of time organizing gear last time. i almost can't carry some stuff on my harness b/c it hangs down to my knees. my preference is just to hand a sling back and forth...no worries. it's usually my rack but he whines anyway. and erik, i said to save it for spray....there's some things i just don't wanna know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I have the same issues with my regular alpine partner. I rack on a sling and he racks on his harness. Our compromise is to let the leader do what he wants. At belays, I'll grab what I want off his harness when it's my turn to lead and he'll grab gear off the sling when it's his turn. This adds a little time to the belays (but not much) but the leader is comfortable with the racking system (which is more important). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Our compromise is to let the leader do what he wants. At belays, I'll grab what I want off his harness when it's my turn to lead and he'll grab gear off the sling when it's his turn. This adds a little time to the belays (but not much) but the leader is comfortable with the racking system (which is more important). right. Although it only adds time relative to racking on a sling. Personally, I rack on my harness and hate racking on a sling. This thread is the only place I've ever heard of somone believing that how one racks the gear when one is leading is anything other than a personal decision. Of course, the speed of the team is one factor, but, given: 1) the marginal amount of time lost when trading over the rack, 2) the efficiency I get from being able to grab exactly what I want from its designated place on my harness, and 3) the fact that its my ass that will be airborne should I spend to much time fumbling on a rack for a certain piece, I invariably err on the side of racking on the harness. The only time I rack on a sling is when I'm aid climbing with a gigantic rack. Even then, my harness has six loopsl, so l still primarily rack on it. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Although it only adds time relative to racking on a sling. still time, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I have to say, I prefer to rack on my harness as well. the gearsling has never worked well for me. I have heard that I am extreamly sloppy when cleaning, and come off the route looking like a a christmas tree, so realy it doesn't matter, it all has to be re-racked when I am done any way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 minx said: how do you carry your pro? (save the "in my wallet" type of comments for spray) any suggestions for handling the situation in an efficient manner? For alpine rock climbing swinging leads, both me and partner carry slings for pro. I tend to rack my draws on my harness even so. That way, the second cleans onto the sling and voila, they are pretty much ready to lead when they get to the b'lay. For ice climbing, however, I rack everything on harness with screws on large ("fingate") reverse-gate carabiners and draws. Each climber has the fingates, so that when the second is cleaning, they rack the screws onto their own harness and are ready to lead when they get to the next b'lay. I don't think trading gear is necessarily inefficient. The 2-3 min spent at each belay isn't really going to be as much a factor for fast climbing as just climbing fast, and moving simul or unroped over easy ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I think this is really a non-issue. If you calm down at each belay/gear exchange and carefully hand off each piece one at a time you just won't lose that much time. Getting too hyper about saving 2 minutes at the belay is much more likely to end in left/dropped gear than it is to be the difference between getting home in time for dinner. As an aside some of you might find amusing at my expense... I prefer the gear clipped onto the rack from the inside out (gate opening up), while most of my partners prefer it the other way (from the outside in). With some of my more careful partners, this ends up in us taking all biners off the sling at every exhange just to turn them around . And, well....I am quite frequently late for dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 One of my partners hates gear slings, and it takes all day to do a route. He gets all funny feeling and starts whining when you ask him to use one. He can't stand stuff over his shoulders. So when I climb with him, I don't expect speed, I just have fun. With him I try not to do things that require a tite schedule, or swinging leads. I think that when climbing with other people, one should know how and be willing to climb in "standard" procedure if your partner requests it. Doing anything thing else is just whining. If a small sacrifice will make the machine run smoother, then buck up and carry a gear sling. Sometimes if I have a route down well, i.e., only bring the pro I need, I'll rack on the harness, because theres only like a biner with some slings, stoppers and a couple cams(for example), and it's nice climbing with no weight up top . However, a "standard" rack is more efficiently carried on gear slings, when swinging leads. That is my opinion, I have spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I agree with ChucK and Alex that the method of racking gear is not critical. I climb with partners who use a variety of methods and combinations of short or long shoulder slings, double slings, or racking everything on their harness. I find it easy to accommodate their preferences and I can lead just fine with no shoulder rack, one or two -- the only thing that really bugs me is when I am climbing with someone who gets impatient when I want to deviate from their "system." I bet most parties lose a lot more time screwing around placing and moving a nest of anchors and equalizing everything or insisting upon "directionals" on 5.2 terrain or whatever, and then breaking down the resulting convolutions, than they do with the exchange of gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I carry all my gear in my teeth while leading and cleaning up as a second. This invariably makes the gear very slick on the hand off, so we lose a lot of stuff. But seriously... I prefer the sling method with runners (singles and doubles at least) racked on the sling too. I just find it easier to locate the gear I want when it's pretty much right in front of me as opposed to contorting my body to look at the gear around my hip(s). However, I don't like the way all that pro can clang against the rock when I'm leaning forward. Yep, we all know that clanging cowbell sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 minx said: or rather, he doesn't like how i carry my rack. one of my favorite alpine buddies and i are at odds about how to carry stuff. i prefer most of my pro over my shoulders with a few misc things on my harness. he hates a gear sling and racks most everything on his harness. this obviously creates some headaches when we're swapping leads. sound like both you and your partner are persnickety as all hell. transferring the whole rack to and from someones harness increases the odds of dropping something. and it takes longer. just ask the fucker to show up at your belay with the gear --all the gear: from his harness and cleaned-- on a sling so its ready to rerack. my petpeeve is my partner arriving at the belay to hand me a cluster of webbing and gear expected me to sort the mess they made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 mattp said: I agree with ChucK and Alex that the method of racking gear is not critical. I climb with partners who use a variety of methods and combinations of short or long shoulder slings, double slings, or racking everything on their harness. I find it easy to accommodate their preferences and I can lead just fine with no shoulder rack, one or two -- the only thing that really bugs me is when I am climbing with someone who gets impatient when I want to deviate from their "system." I bet most parties lose a lot more time screwing around placing and moving a nest of anchors and equalizing everything or insisting upon "directionals" on 5.2 terrain or whatever, and then breaking down the resulting convolutions, than they do with the exchange of gear. I agree with you on the deviation thing. It can be a little frustrating. F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I like to rack the gear and some slings on my harness, except when climbing in chimeys or offwidths where I have to get inside and the gear will be in the way. Lately I've been racking the draws (shoulder length slings with caribiners) on another sling over my shoulder, but don't like heavy things like cams or nuts being on a sling because they just get in the way when I climb. Handovers at belays are not an issue and if seconding and not swapping leads, I ask the leader how he/she wants me to pass off gear. Some take it off my harness and some ask for pieces. I always clean up the slings, etc. it makes it much faster to not hand the leader a big mess of gear slings with nuts and cams on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 The way I rack depends on the climb. I prefer to rack on my harness, but if I'm climbing a dihedral or chimney where I expect my hips to contact the rock I switch to a gear sling. To switch gear to the leader of the next pitch I move each piece of gear off my harness to a runner around my neck/shoulder and hand it off en masse to him/her. All that can usually be done while they are grabing a drink, snack, or a quick peek at the views. I don't think it really takes up that much time on most of the climbs in the PacNW. If I were to do a big wall I'd definitely want to have a system down beforehand to be more efficient....likely involving a gear sling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 also another thing that peeves me, is when people make shoulder lengths into quick draws and then use the quickdraw/shoulder length and pull it long again. now you have done the same action twice where you would have not had to do it once. and now you have an extra biner just dangling. i use 4-6 long draws on the harness and 6-8 slings over the shoulder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 i watched this dude climb once who preracked all his gear according to what he thought hed place. and he put quickdraws on each piece and clipped em to his rope. i guess the idea was that hed just unclip a piece from his harness plug it and go. since it was already clipped on the rope. fucking funny as all hell when he got flustered when somehting got outa order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MATT_B Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I like to keep things on my harness but I realy don't think it matters either way. On an average pitch you can expect to place roughly half of the rack. Your partner cleans the pitch and gets to the belay. Now you are both standing (or hanging) there each with about half the rack. What ever system you use you will still have to transfer about half the rack from one person to another. Yes there are time when you will only place a couple of peices and there are times that you will dump the entire rack in the crack but for the most part I would say half is a fair estimate. What I think is more important is how you clean the pitch. If you don't keep thing organized you will loose time. One of my partners used to always say "clean clean" We knew how each other liked to have the rack. When we got to the belay I would grab gear form one side of his rack and put it on my harness and he would do the same on the other side. Change over was very fast and everything was right where it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 lummox said: minx said: or rather, he doesn't like how i carry my rack. one of my favorite alpine buddies and i are at odds about how to carry stuff. i prefer most of my pro over my shoulders with a few misc things on my harness. he hates a gear sling and racks most everything on his harness. this obviously creates some headaches when we're swapping leads. sound like both you and your partner are persnickety as all hell. transferring the whole rack to and from someones harness increases the odds of dropping something. and it takes longer. just ask the fucker to show up at your belay with the gear --all the gear: from his harness and cleaned-- on a sling so its ready to rerack. my petpeeve is my partner arriving at the belay to hand me a cluster of webbing and gear expected me to sort the mess they made. note to self, don't climb with Lummox BTW I am getting better, at not making such a mess of the clean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 I only have one gear loop on each side of my harness, so I put about three draws or tripled shoulder length slings on each side. All the gear goes on a Metolius gear sling and the remaining slings go over my shoulder with one biner each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 erik said: i use 4-6 long draws on the harness and 6-8 slings over the shoulder ditto on this one. as far as racking, i use a sling. that way i can have "easy" access to my gear no matter what hand is where, etc. if you and your partner do it differently and don't want to compromise, then just take the time to do it differently. i think whoever is leading might as well rack the gear the way they want it racked. when i'm leading i don't want to put gear where i'm not used to it being, especially if i'm pushing my limit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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