JoshK Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: JoshK said: JG - you started a very interesting arguement. good points from a lot of people here, and surprisngly little spray (give it time, I know), so far. The comment I would like to add is that things are never as cut and dry as people like to make them seem. Examples: 1.) Us giving aid to israel is wrong. we do it simply to confront and limit power of the muslim countries. bullshit. if it wasn't for israel and U.S. help, the muslim countries would get their way; which is eliminating the jewish religion. those guys aren't the poor helpless victims of the U.S. that some make them out to be. 2.)The U.S. is horrible to islam, europe stands on the side. wrong, europe (in the name of christianity) did more harm to that group of people over the last 1000 years than the U.S. ever has 3.)sweeden is great. well, yeah, I'm sure it's nice to live there but neutrality is bullshit. if the rest of us had taken that approach in WWII there would be no sweeden today. Overall, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I hardly think it's a case of the U.S. being big bad and evil and not understanding everybody else. Stereotyping a country of 300 million people is silly. Idiots abound everywhere you look, in the U.S., Europe, China, whatever. I think we have lots of problems to fix here, the first of which is getting rid of GWB. That isn't to say, however, that it makes everybody else problem-less and innocent. I totally agree. Things are never cut and dry. I was just putting forth a book that I'd read that I thought was worth of discussion. I do believe however, that while the US has done much good, it has also done much harm in bringing us to the current state of affairs where we're a nation culturally marginalized and only interacted with because we are the last remaining superpower and exert huge influence on the global stage with an unbeatable military to back up our brand of diplomacy. Agreed. Interestingly enough America did most of it's good when it was still strugling to move to the forefront of world influence and policy. We now truly have the power to change almost anything we want and do nothing worth while. Our recent shift to support right-wing isolationist morons in our goverment has a lot to do with this, I believe. To make things worse FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) are spread through the media by our government to help gain support for our shit-ass global policies. I suppose it's always hard to draw the line, however. Even if we try to play nice with everybody, before long you'll encounter some form of jackass that wants to hurt you no matter what. Osama is this kind of character. We could pull out of the middle east entirely (which would degrade that place into a bigger shithole than it is today, I'm sure) and they'll find some other beef with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said: Greg_W said: RuMR said: Greg_W said: RuMR said: Greg_W said: Stefan said: I guess this country is number one in educating people. Yeah, people who don't belong here. That is SO fucked. Hey...gotta disagree w/ you here...More education all around will never be wrong, ever! Technically, each illegal alien is a criminal and here illegally. Why should our country bear this burden of supporting criminal activity? You want Washington to balance a budget or cut spending? Get them to stop stupid handouts like this. I agree, RumR, that education is a good thing, but the U.S. has been a charity ward for too long. It can't go on forever, it's not a sustainable system. Trust me...educated kids of illegal aliens is better than uneducated ones...they can and will become donating citizens...think of it this way, the illegals showed some serious gumption to get over here and to improve their lives...its narrowminded to shut our doors...and wrong... Good reason to ignore the law, dude. Come on. "Wrong"? Please, we have LEGAL immigration channels. Fuck the LAW! JUST SCREW IT... You know, its against muslim law to have sex outside marriage? and that they'll stone a women to death? And it was cool under nazi law to exterminate people? JUST FUCK THE LAW...the laws have nothing to do w/ it...fuck, it was legal to have slaves at one time... Dude, you're losing it. Pull it together, you're drooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Greg_W said: RuMR said: Greg_W said: RuMR said: Greg_W said: RuMR said: Greg_W said: Stefan said: I guess this country is number one in educating people. Yeah, people who don't belong here. That is SO fucked. Hey...gotta disagree w/ you here...More education all around will never be wrong, ever! Technically, each illegal alien is a criminal and here illegally. Why should our country bear this burden of supporting criminal activity? You want Washington to balance a budget or cut spending? Get them to stop stupid handouts like this. I agree, RumR, that education is a good thing, but the U.S. has been a charity ward for too long. It can't go on forever, it's not a sustainable system. Trust me...educated kids of illegal aliens is better than uneducated ones...they can and will become donating citizens...think of it this way, the illegals showed some serious gumption to get over here and to improve their lives...its narrowminded to shut our doors...and wrong... Good reason to ignore the law, dude. Come on. "Wrong"? Please, we have LEGAL immigration channels. Fuck the LAW! JUST SCREW IT... You know, its against muslim law to have sex outside marriage? and that they'll stone a women to death? And it was cool under nazi law to exterminate people? JUST FUCK THE LAW...the laws have nothing to do w/ it...fuck, it was legal to have slaves at one time... Dude, you're losing it. Pull it together, you're drooling. FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK just spilled my coffee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I've come to the conclusion that the middle east is a lost cause. Fuck that snake pit. Let's bring em home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 trask said: I've come to the conclusion that the middle east is a lost cause. Fuck that snake pit. Let's bring em home. Can i borrow one of those thingies in your pic? I gotta let some "stress" out!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I like the illegals. They allow me to buy food at cheap prices. I have turned a blind eye--but I guess that's the market. What I don't like is having to pay tax dollars to educate the children of illegal aliens. That is not the government's role. I guess this makes it a double standard???? I would like to read the book, but right now I gotta read up on WalMart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 So...would you rather have them stay home and not be educated? they are here, deal with it in the best manner possible... Oh, and to all those idiots that said english had to be the only language used, who is going to teach the kids that? Their parents when they get off of slave labor in the evening???????????? Can't have your cake and eat it too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said: Personally, i think its sour ass grapes... We have THE best system on the planet, period. Yeah, we got a lot of problems, but who doesn't? Its still the best and EVERY other system out there is substandard...We are the STANDARD that others measure against... rah-rah-rah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Sure, educate them, but make them PAY for it. This isn't no fucking charity ward. Slave labor my ass, their making good money. You should see the housing that my friend's dad has to build for the pickers in his orchards. Fawkin' nice. I don't eat cake; my grandmother makes stellar marionberry pie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JoshK said: JG - you started a very interesting arguement. good points from a lot of people here, and surprisngly little spray (give it time, I know), so far. The comment I would like to add is that things are never as cut and dry as people like to make them seem. Examples: 1.) Us giving aid to israel is wrong. we do it simply to confront and limit power of the muslim countries. bullshit. if it wasn't for israel and U.S. help, the muslim countries would get their way; which is eliminating the jewish religion. those guys aren't the poor helpless victims of the U.S. that some make them out to be. 2.)The U.S. is horrible to islam, europe stands on the side. wrong, europe (in the name of christianity) did more harm to that group of people over the last 1000 years than the U.S. ever has 3.)sweeden is great. well, yeah, I'm sure it's nice to live there but neutrality is bullshit. if the rest of us had taken that approach in WWII there would be no sweeden today. Overall, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I hardly think it's a case of the U.S. being big bad and evil and not understanding everybody else. Stereotyping a country of 300 million people is silly. Idiots abound everywhere you look, in the U.S., Europe, China, whatever. I think we have lots of problems to fix here, the first of which is getting rid of GWB. That isn't to say, however, that it makes everybody else problem-less and innocent. well stated summary... makes a agreat deal of sense and i agree with nearly all of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptimmy Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Good thing my Great Grand parents got away with it.They snuck across the boarder to have my grandfather.But I guess its ok with most right wingers....they were white royal british subjects(scottish).Just A question here but dont most illeagles pay taxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Children of illegal immigrants should be educated. They came to America for a reason--and it's not to live off welfare. I'd rather have hardworking immigrants than lazy natural-born citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 toptimmy said: But I guess its ok with most right wingers....they were white royal british subjects(scottish). No, we pretty much want their tea-drinking, haggis-eating, pasty white asses out of our country too. Maybe the statute of limitations hasn't run out; I'm gonna call INS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 biggest strkies against us. 1) Hollywood 2) Media 3) Lack of Knowledge abotu the Outside World... this is what people hate about our country... ironically enoughthese things are all perpetuated by the same people... media conglomerates, i believe, are ruining our country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president.... This one always gets me. The election was effectively a dead heat. Our current election process is neither perfect nor precise, so a swing of a few thousand votes determined the winner. I'm sure both sides can come up with a list of discrepancies which 'proves' that their man should have won, but ultimately, there was no clear winner. Ideally, there is one man - one vote, but in the real world it's a little fuzzy. This time the election fell in the fuzzyness. Besides, the electoral college elects the president anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptimmy Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Sorry dude they are all dead. But still voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence_Sitter Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Besides, the electoral college elects the president anyway. thank God! someone realizes this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 While it would be untrue to claim that there are not elements of our foreign policy that those outside of our borders can be legitimately upset about, it would be equally untrue to suggest that all resentment of the United States, especially in Europe, is the product of a fair and factual analysis of every aspect of our role in the world. As others have mentioned, when it appeared that the Japaneese would be ascendant and displace the US atop the global economic hierarchy, the rise in anti-Japaneese sentiment had very little to do with the purported shortcomings of the Japaneese themselves, and everything to do with our own envy at and resentment of their success. First they build cars that last twice as long, use half the gas, and then they have the audacity to sell them to us at half the price! Damn them. You can't tell me that Europe's relative decline vis-a-vis the US and their consciousness of their rather staggering civilizational failures (WWI and WWII, Nazism, Fasism, Communism) have nothing to do with the way they feel about the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Kiwi said: Children of illegal immigrants should be educated. They came to America for a reason--and it's not to live off welfare. I'd rather have hardworking immigrants than lazy natural-born citizens. True, my fuzzy green fruit sweetheart, but why should it be free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Attitude said: Ideally, there is one man - one vote, but in the real world it's a little fuzzy. This time the election fell in the fuzzyness. Besides, the electoral college elects the president anyway. that must be one of those standards the rest of the world measure themselves against .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Sloth_Man said: But the end result is the same and the people that truly have power over us are the same. The wealthy and the corporations will get what they want. The environment, the working man, and the poor will suffer. Of that there's no doubt. Man Sloth, you sound hopeless. While changes seem slow I can't believe that life is as futile as you suggest. You make is sound as if we are all along for the ride. Why don't you grab the wheel and drive for a while. It will make you feel better. trask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptimmy Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 You forgot to mention golf,and the other side is Irish.They were snowbacks also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Attitude said: Ideally, there is one man - one vote, I would disagree with this, and use the Founding Father's argument as backup. They wanted a check and balance - the Electoral College was one of those for the election process. If it hadn't been put in place, Virginia would pretty much have been electing the president and little states would be fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Greg_W said: True, my fuzzy green fruit sweetheart, but why should it be free? Their children will eventually become part of the system anyways and pay it back in taxes for the rest of their lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 Fence_Sitter said: biggest strkies against us. 1) Hollywood 2) Media 3) Lack of Knowledge abotu the Outside World... this is what people hate about our country... ironically enoughthese things are all perpetuated by the same people... media conglomerates, i believe, are ruining our country... I once was asked how long it takes to drive to Scotland. This was when I was a student in Louisiana. Also, I was asked if Scotland was a province of Canada or Scandinavia. I once also had someone seem amazed when I was wearing a soccer shirt from back home, that we used the same numerals as the U.S. Needless to say, I had many comments that my English was "pretty good." Most were in Louisiana, but I've also heard that comment up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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