JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I read a book that my brother had lying around when I was home last week. Anybody had a chance to read it? What do you think? Why Do People Hate America? Before you go on about Euro liberals berating this great nation, take the time to read the book. It's clear that the authors are definitely anti-American and it does get a bit nauseating sometimes, but if you can see beyond that, they present some fascinating facts, and draw some fairly interesting conclusions that did resonate with me. I'd recommend reading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 they're just jealous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 The real question is, do we care why foreigners hate us? Me personally, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Personally, i think its sour ass grapes... We have THE best system on the planet, period. Yeah, we got a lot of problems, but who doesn't? Its still the best and EVERY other system out there is substandard...We are the STANDARD that others measure against... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said: Personally, i think its sour ass grapes... We have THE best system on the planet, period. Yeah, we got a lot of problems, but who doesn't? Its still the best and EVERY other system out there is substandard...We are the STANDARD that others measure against... Have you read the book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Can't say I disagree with some of their arguments. And Americanisation of the rest of the world is a bad thing. You lose cultural identity and uniqueness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 kiwi it is not americanization.... it is the anglo xhristain ethic being taught to people....you know the one, where you tell on people, hate others you do not understand and attempt to force your weakass on them so that you can stand above them with a smirk of dominance.... its really simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: RuMR said: Personally, i think its sour ass grapes... We have THE best system on the planet, period. Yeah, we got a lot of problems, but who doesn't? Its still the best and EVERY other system out there is substandard...We are the STANDARD that others measure against... Have you read the book? No...i haven't...and i'm not saying that we don't have problems...We do...and we also step on a lot of toes...BUT, very few people leave this country for other countries and the corollary to that is a LOT of people immigrate here for a better life...why is that? Are you Scottish by birth? If so, why are you here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 erik said: kiwi it is not americanization.... it is the anglo xhristain ethic being taught to people....you know the one, where you tell on people, hate others you do not understand and attempt to force your weakass on them so that you can stand above them with a smirk of dominance.... its really simple! Yeah right...that's it, damn, and all this time i thought it was stuff like the Marshall Plan and what not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 it is the anglo xhristain ethic being taught to people....you know the one, where you tell on people, hate others you do not understand and attempt to force your weakass on them so that you can stand above them with a smirk of dominance.... That sounds like German and French modus operandi to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said:Are you Scottish by birth? If so, why are you here? Yes, I'm Scottish by birth. Got the fucking UK passport to prove I'm a British serf, I mean subject. I came initially cos I'd never been to the U.S. I had a track scholarship. After that, when I graduated, I moved to Sweden and quickly wanted to come back because there's an energy and zeal to succeed here like no other country. However, I've come to realize that that zeal blinds all else. We purportedly live in a free nation that embodies the ideals of freedom and democracy, yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. Now, your simple answer to my criticisms might be, "Fuck off home to wherever you came from." or some such xenophobic reply, but I do love this country, and just wish that there were some things that we could change. It may be that we'll never be able to change, and indeed, the answer may well be to leave, but that's a shame because it's that very attitude that's causing such global alienation. "Fuck you all cos we're the sole hyperpower and can do whatever the fuck we want. If you don't like it, prepare to meet your maker blah blah blah." I think the educated and globally minded folks of this nation deserve much better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I don't hate America but I hate cult-like mindless flag-waving zealots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. hahaha, and the beat goes on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 However, I've come to realize that that zeal blinds all else. We purportedly live in a free nation that embodies the ideals of freedom and democracy, yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. Hey Gowans, c'mon, in human systems you know that nothing runs perfectly. But the key statement you made, that zeal to achieve blinds all else, I just don't buy. Read the other thread today, where quite a few people say they are only working as a means to an end. I think the biggest problem in the US is tv- hollywood- and media-related, however. It's the worship of celebrity over real achievement or heroism. That has spawned outrageous behavior for the sake of itself, and put the quest for true achievement out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: RuMR said:Are you Scottish by birth? If so, why are you here? Now, your simple answer to my criticisms might be, "Fuck off home to wherever you came from." or some such xenophobic reply, but I do love this country, and just wish that there were some things that we could change. It may be that we'll never be able to change, and indeed, the answer may well be to leave, but that's a shame because it's that very attitude that's causing such global alienation. "Fuck you all cos we're the sole hyperpower and can do whatever the fuck we want. If you don't like it, prepare to meet your maker blah blah blah." I think the educated and globally minded folks of this nation deserve much better than that. Hmmm....don't think i EVER said we were perfect...more that we have the best system going so far...but, lets face facts, its made by humans and will be flawed...you have every right to feel the way you do and vote the way you wish...I personally will not be voting for bush... I was in manhattan last week and stared into a very large hole in the ground...one caused by rage against this country...My first inclination was that we should have melted that whole goddammed tora bora range into a pile of glowing glass...but guess what, we didn't, and i think we showed quite a bit of restraint...should we have? I don't know...I have mixed feelings over this...obviously, we have pissed off a lot of people... Going to war with Iraq i was against...afghanistan i was for... I have 2 questions for you: "What exactly would you change about the US system (of course recognizing that there will always be the inherent problems w/ large beaurocracies) and why?" And my second question is this: "Who else on this entire planet is doing a better job of it?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said:yet here we are ... being fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. I agree with this statement. If you watch/read European news, you get a better understanding of what's happening in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 trask said: JGowans said: yet here we are being dictated to by an unelected president fuelled by a media horde that is simply not interested in presenting the news. hahaha, and the beat goes on Trask, doesn't it worry you in the slightest that democracy was pulled from under your feet and hardly anyone bats an eyelid? If the elite of this country can get away with such shenanigans in front of 300 million Americans and a world of gaping eyes that many would claim to see America as the beacon of democracy, is it really too much of a stretch to imagine that they really don't give a rats ass about you or anyone else here that makes less than a few mill per year, and they'll do whatever it takes to push their agenda at the expense of the watching world, and the vast majority of essentially helpless Americans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 If you watch/read European news, you get a better understanding of what's happening in the world. Are you trying to tell us that our press is biased toward Israel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 JGowans said: Trask, doesn't it worry you in the slightest that democracy was pulled from under your feet and hardly anyone bats an eyelid? If the elite of this country can get away with such shenanigans in front of 300 million Americans and a world of gaping eyes that many would claim to see America as the beacon of democracy, is it really too much of a stretch to imagine that they really don't give a rats ass about you or anyone else here that makes less than a few mill per year, and they'll do whatever it takes to push their agenda at the expense of the watching world, and the vast majority of essentially helpless Americans. Short answer- perhaps you're right. Do I care- not particularly. Why?- because there will be a new president soon with a different approach. What's important to me?- life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness. Do I have that?- Yup Carry on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 It looks like an interesting book. Does the review I found here properly characterize its message? One thing I would have to say is that I agree that most Americans are pretty ignorant about the rest of the world. A few weeks ago we heard how a large number of Americans think the 9-11 hijackers were from Iraq, and that we have indeed found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that they used chemical and biological weapons against us in the recent war. This almost makes me think that lots of Americans are not only ignorant, but that they WANT TO BE. Afterall, I don't think even the most militant war hawks have said any of those things. But, aside from current events, we just don't know very much about the world: a year or two ago we read that 20% of Americans cannot even find America on a world map! How many people know anything about the history of our interventions in Latin America or Africa? How many Americans know anything about the internal politics in the European Union or the history of China/Korea/Japan? Yes, there are probably other ignorant people in this world, but my impression has been that the people I've met in Asia and Europe knew a lot more about the world than the average American. Do you think his summary of the effects of our foreign interventions is accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmoney Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 People are not dying to get into Scotland (or any other "old world" socialist european state) to work and live. 'Nuff said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloth_Man Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I'm still waiting to see the first public figure refrain from anything. It seems to rub off on regular people that success means having it all and getting some more and ending up with mass more than you could ever use. I doubt that many of us regular people get anywhere close to that, but I don't doubt that many people waste their lives trying to get it. I also don't doubt that all political moves in the last 10 years or more have been geared towards making it easier for people to do. What I'm waiting to see is the first 'famous' person stand up in public and say "Ya know I don't need all those millions. I already have enough stuff. I'm going to take the extra and do......" Maybe when that happens there'll be hope for the TV babies of America. But for now our behavior is simply a scramble to get as much of a diminishing pile as possible. Honor, self respect, restraint.... all bullshit words that are only used on children and have no place in the adult world of American society. And we want to export with force this empty materialist quest. But the only thing we have to wash it down with are the meaningless orwellian phrases about 'freedom' and 'democracy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Rumor and Gmoney - What is the significance of the fact that so many people want to move to the U.S. -- of course they want to move here because we are one of the richest countries where an outsider can come in and have a chance to make it. But what does that say about our role in/and relationship with/ the rest of the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 RuMR said:I have 2 questions for you: "What exactly would you change about the US system (of course recognizing that there will always be the inherent problems w/ large beaurocracies) and why?" And my second question is this: "Who else on this entire planet is doing a better job of it?" Good points by you and RobBob. I've lived here most of my adult life, but probably won't ever quite understand the desire by most Americans to nuke other nations as a way to exact revenge. That's neither here nor there though. I do understand the well of emotion. What would I change and why? - For one, the mass media. Clear Channel communication owns most of the airwaves in this country. This conglomerate is actually run by a few guys from Texas that happen to be good buddies of GW. I'd introduce some real competition into that industry. Currently, it seems that the only source for news is NPR which is quite a sad state of affairs given that so few people bother to listen to that station. Same principles apply to TV. When was the last time we actually saw a news piece about foreign countries that wasn't about us helping them, or bombing them? No, they'd rather talk about the latest Sony camcorder (I saw this yesterday) or talk about two cute little kittens born in Seattle. Where's the news? Fuck the entertainment aspect, and give us the news. Local, national, international, unbiased, objective news where we are free to filter it ourselves. - I would reduce the amount of aid we give to Israel. Currently it stands at $4Billion a year. Surely with that level of aid, we hold enough leverage to put an end to the troubles there. - I would make an honest and sincere attempt to bridge the gulf between blacks and whites in this country. Britain has just as much of a guilty history as the U.S., yet blacks are much more integrated into society there than here. If it takes raising taxes to give them decent housing and education then so be it. - I'd implement some very stringent gun laws. Currently, the U.S. experiences some 11,000 gun deaths every year. Canada has about 60. - I'd like to see us approach foreign nations with a view to establishing partnerships versus one way highways that allow our corporations to reap their natural resources for a pittance. - I'd like us to review how we operate within the international sphere of politics. Ratifying the Kyoto treaty, signing the U.N.s Child's Bills of Rights (only Iraq and the U.S. have not signed it), signing the anti-landmine bills (again, only the U.S. and I think Iran have not signed this). I could go on, but the basic point I'm making is that we only sign bills pertaining to free trade and mock every other bill that comes our way regarding human rights, torture, executing children etc. - I could think of a few more things, but let's keep the debate going... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGowans Posted July 1, 2003 Author Share Posted July 1, 2003 gmoney said: People are not dying to get into Scotland (or any other "old world" socialist european state) to work and live. 'Nuff said! Indeed, I think enough has been said to ascertain that you are the typical citizen that has no interest in anything beyond your big screen TV and well stocked fridge of cheap beer and salsa. There's no hope for you, but it's clear in posting to this board that there's a lot of concerned Americans that do have slightly more worthy interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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