Paul_detrick Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 No vantage would not be good for them, its to far, and I might be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Alrighty, fuck priapism for likening the Mounties to Osama Bin Laden... Â But fuck the fucking basic climbing class just as much. A group of 50? Only? Makes me wish I had Ray's, or Trask's, or Crazy Polish Bob's way with words, I mean expletives. Â The Icicle is no place for groups of 50, no more than any other crag is. Â I don't care that you're taking over four different small crags either. Â There is nothing that is taught at these massive field trips that couldn't be taken care of in the city. If the Mounties take their enviro-conservatism seriously then they ought to stick to their own rules about limiting group size, national park boundaries notwithstanding. The basic class should not be an exception - it should be the first and most important opportunity to imprint good ethics, including the limiting of group sizes and how (not) to manage ropes at busy crags. Lead, follow, move on. Â The offer to take down a top-rope that is not in use is not good enough either. An active top-rope should be taken down if another party shows up and wants to lead, follow and go. Â I have no other problems with the Mounties. I'm a member, although I have never participated in a climbing trip. The reason is that there doesn't seem to be any way to begin climbing with the Mounties that doesn't involve participating in big trips like this. It's an anachronism and should be changed. If the form of the basic climbing course would change I think I would only have good things to say about the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 I don't see what the problem is with a Mountaineers' course in the Icicle. If they wanted to take a group of fifty camping up at some pristine tarn in the Enchantments, I'd be unhappy about it. But if they want to mob Barney's Rubble, I can't really see what's wrong with that. Â Yes, I'd be unhappy if that happened to be the day I wanted to climb at Barney's Rubble, but I think that all fifty of those people probably have a right to learn how to climb and that one group of fifty may in fact have less impact that five groups of ten. It's Barney's Rubble and Clamshell, for god sake. It is not some pristine wilderness and it is not as if somebody who finds them in the way cannot go somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 i hear their planning a speed ascent of the mounties dome. they need 25 people to verify the departure time, 25 people to verify the arrival time and 50 notaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa_Eagle Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 I seem to remember someone asking for the mounties to announce when they're going to be where, and now that they do, all people can do is complain! arg! If you don't like it, don't go there. You have no right to tell the Mounties that they can't go someplace, and they're even telling you where and when they're going to be. I haven't climbed at these places, but it sounds like they're the kind of crags that most competent climbers wouldn't be going to anyway. It's one weekend, get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Matt, I think nobody, including the Mountaineers and myself alike, is discussing wilderness areas. Â We're talking about busy crags in non-wilderness areas. Crowding and route access is a greater problem than erosion and environmental impact, although the latter shouldn't be ignored. Â Ropes should not be left hanging on routes when not in use, on Barney's Rubble and otherwise. That's a message the Mounties should be advocating in the basic class, not ignoring. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin_B Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 fleblebleb said: The Icicle is no place for groups of 50, no more than any other crag is.[/b] Okay, so can someone please explain to me how 50 cc.comers at Rope-Up climbing in groups of 2 or 4 all over the canyon is different from 50 people climbing in groups of 10 at 5 different areas (not to mention the areas the Mountaineers use are the so-called crappy areas that cc.comers wouldn't go near). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 FOR ONE THING DUSTIN Â I DONT THINK THE CC.COMMER LEFT GARBAGE WHERE EVER THEY WENT. ACTUALLY I DO KNOW THEY WENT OUT AND PICKED UP GARABGE IN GROUPS.. YOU KNOW LIKE RETURNED SOMETHING BACK THE OUTDOORS. Â ALSO THE CC.COMMERS DID NOT ATTEMPT TO DICTATE TO OTHERS WHAT IS/WAS RIGHT AND WRONG. Â WHEREAS BOTH OF THESE ISSUE SEEM TO FOLLOW OUT OF MOUNTIE GROUP.... Â EITHER WAY I DONT CARE WHATY YOUR GROUP DOES...AS I DONT CLIMB WHERE Y'ALL DO... Â BUT EVERYSINGLE CLIMBER IN THE WORLD IS AS VALUABLE AS YOUR BEST MEMBER. THAT IS ONE THING THAT YOUR LEADERS SEEM TO FORGET. Â AND DONT FORGET TO PICKUP YOUR TRASH.. Â ALSO WHAT IS UP WITH THE MOUNTIES AND MAKING PEOPLE AFRAID? THIS IS WHAT YOUR PROGRAM CREATES. YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WRONG AND NEVER RIGHT. YOU MAKE CLIMBING NEGATIVE...IF I HAD PEOPLE TEACHING ME LIKE THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED TO CLIMB. Â YA SEE! Â HAVE FUN! Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Fleb, I agree with the idea that they should do their best to minimize their disruption of other climbers' weekend and to minimize any lasting impact by staying on trails and cleaning up after themselves. I doubt anybody in the organization will disagree with these ideas although they may not always be able to control what all their members do and, in part because a lot of their leaders are themselves relatively inexperienced climbers, they often do things that many of us can criticize. I think the main question in this thread is whether or not they have a right to organize a group of fifty, however, and I think that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 (edited) Matt, I think the level of activity on the ropes constitutes the main difference between a crag visited by a group of 50 Mountie basic class participants, and a crag busy with that many climbers in smaller groups. Â In some ways busy crags are good - we need busy crags in order to maintain access to climbing areas, strength in numbers and all that good stuff. But inactive ropes are bad. Â If the group of 50 Mounties were divied up into parties of 2-4 with each group using the same rope throughout the day then there would be much less difference between ropefest and the basic course field trips. However, in that case it wouldn't really be a group of 50. Â Lead, follow and move on. Edited April 24, 2003 by fleblebleb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 erik said: FOR ONE THING DUSTIN Â I DONT THINK THE CC.COMMER LEFT GARBAGE WHERE EVER THEY WENT. ACTUALLY I DO KNOW THEY WENT OUT AND PICKED UP GARABGE IN GROUPS.. YOU KNOW LIKE RETURNED SOMETHING BACK THE OUTDOORS. Â ALSO THE CC.COMMERS DID NOT ATTEMPT TO DICTATE TO OTHERS WHAT IS/WAS RIGHT AND WRONG. Â WHEREAS BOTH OF THESE ISSUE SEEM TO FOLLOW OUT OF MOUNTIE GROUP.... Â EITHER WAY I DONT CARE WHATY YOUR GROUP DOES...AS I DONT CLIMB WHERE Y'ALL DO... Â BUT EVERYSINGLE CLIMBER IN THE WORLD IS AS VALUABLE AS YOUR BEST MEMBER. THAT IS ONE THING THAT YOUR LEADERS SEEM TO FORGET. Â AND DONT FORGET TO PICKUP YOUR TRASH.. Â ALSO WHAT IS UP WITH THE MOUNTIES AND MAKING PEOPLE AFRAID? THIS IS WHAT YOUR PROGRAM CREATES. YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WRONG AND NEVER RIGHT. YOU MAKE CLIMBING NEGATIVE...IF I HAD PEOPLE TEACHING ME LIKE THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED TO CLIMB. Â YA SEE! Â HAVE FUN! Â Â Mounties suck. Werd. But if they want to top-rope seige Barney's Rubble more power to 'em. Who fuckin' cares? If it weren't for people like the mounties we wouldn't have anyone to be elitist about anyway. Sheeeit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 mattp said: I agree with the idea that they should do their best to minimize their disruption of other climbers' weekend ... ???? When Flebbleb shows up at Mountaineer's Dome to work his 5.1 death route, a group already climbing there should get out of his way?  No, I don't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 erik said: FOR ONE THING DUSTIN  I DONT THINK THE CC.COMMER LEFT GARBAGE WHERE EVER THEY WENT. ACTUALLY I DO KNOW THEY WENT OUT AND PICKED UP GARABGE IN GROUPS.. YOU KNOW LIKE RETURNED SOMETHING BACK THE OUTDOORS.  ALSO THE CC.COMMERS DID NOT ATTEMPT TO DICTATE TO OTHERS WHAT IS/WAS RIGHT AND WRONG.  WHEREAS BOTH OF THESE ISSUE SEEM TO FOLLOW OUT OF MOUNTIE GROUP....  EITHER WAY I DONT CARE WHATY YOUR GROUP DOES...AS I DONT CLIMB WHERE Y'ALL DO...  BUT EVERYSINGLE CLIMBER IN THE WORLD IS AS VALUABLE AS YOUR BEST MEMBER. THAT IS ONE THING THAT YOUR LEADERS SEEM TO FORGET.  AND DONT FORGET TO PICKUP YOUR TRASH..  ALSO WHAT IS UP WITH THE MOUNTIES AND MAKING PEOPLE AFRAID? THIS IS WHAT YOUR PROGRAM CREATES. YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WRONG AND NEVER RIGHT. YOU MAKE CLIMBING NEGATIVE...IF I HAD PEOPLE TEACHING ME LIKE THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED TO CLIMB.  YA SEE!  HAVE FUN!  Erik, Tell us about this big group you take over crags with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 Dustin_B said: fleblebleb said: The Icicle is no place for groups of 50, no more than any other crag is.[/b] cc.com is us. The Mounties are them. Okay, so can someone please explain to me how 50 cc.comers at Rope-Up climbing in groups of 2 or 4 all over the canyon is different from 50 people climbing in groups of 10 at 5 different areas (not to mention the areas the Mountaineers use are the so-called crappy areas that cc.comers wouldn't go near). cc.com is us. The Mounties are them. Â Us good; them bad. Â Simple enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin_B Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 erik said: I DONT THINK THE CC.COMMER LEFT GARBAGE WHERE EVER THEY WENT. ACTUALLY I DO KNOW THEY WENT OUT AND PICKED UP GARABGE IN GROUPS.. YOU KNOW LIKE RETURNED SOMETHING BACK THE OUTDOORS. Â ALSO THE CC.COMMERS DID NOT ATTEMPT TO DICTATE TO OTHERS WHAT IS/WAS RIGHT AND WRONG. Â WHEREAS BOTH OF THESE ISSUE SEEM TO FOLLOW OUT OF MOUNTIE GROUP.... Â BUT EVERYSINGLE CLIMBER IN THE WORLD IS AS VALUABLE AS YOUR BEST MEMBER. THAT IS ONE THING THAT YOUR LEADERS SEEM TO FORGET. Â AND DONT FORGET TO PICKUP YOUR TRASH.. Â ALSO WHAT IS UP WITH THE MOUNTIES AND MAKING PEOPLE AFRAID? THIS IS WHAT YOUR PROGRAM CREATES. YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT THEY DO WRONG AND NEVER RIGHT. YOU MAKE CLIMBING NEGATIVE...IF I HAD PEOPLE TEACHING ME LIKE THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER STARTED TO CLIMB. Â Good points Erik but I thought the discussion was about the "right" of the Mountaineers to have 50 people in the canyon. That was what several people seemed to be pissed about and I just brought up the fact that cc.com does something very similar. Â As far as the trash concern. That is definitely something the Mountaineers don't take lightly. I'd like to believe it wasn't our group it certainly could have been. Â As far as someone telling you you're doing something wrong. Just tell them to fuck off or ignore them. Â Hopefully things will be different this year as many Mountaineers post to cc.com and are aware of the anti-Mountie feelings. Â One more thing to point out. The Mountaineers get blamed for a lot of stuff because they are the biggest organization when in reality it is all the clubs that are equally at fault (BOEALPS, Mazamas, etc). Also each branch of the Mountaineers basically acts like a completely seperate organization. Like the Everett branch has no control over the Seattle branch etc. So a couple of people in one of these groups pisses someone off a few times and all of a sudden all of them suck. I'll be the first to admit that big groups suck but not everyone is forunate enough to be a part of such a nice group of cc.comers willing to take a complete beginner out to teach to climb. So they learn in groups. Â My original question still stands though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 Attitude, your list of posts is a wasteland. As far as I can tell you have never contributed anything useful here, and you're not much of a sprayer either - don't draw any laughs, don't make any good trolls, don't really do anything interesting. What's your climbing like? Why are you defensive when people push back on big groups with tons of top-ropes that were put up from above and are left alone most of the day? Is it because you don't lead? That's my best guess. Feel free to tell us otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 People are taking a couple of statements as fact that are simply not true. First the Everett Branch of the Mountaineers has been very conscientious about picking up trash. We pick up our own and any other trash we find. Second, we don't put up ropes we don't use. We keep the students busy climbing on those ropes all day long. Â There are two approaches to minimizing impact on the environment, dispersal and concentration. Sometimes dispersal is better and other times concentration is better. I think that in this case focusing a larger number of climbers in fewer areas that have already been heavily used will cause the lowest impact on the environment and on other climbers. Furthermore, the potential of trundling rocks on others is reduced because these crags have fewer rocks to trundle. Â I suspect that whatever we do we'll catch flak, and that there is no way to make everybody happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 Ursa Eagle says: "It's one weekend, get over it."  Two points: It's not just one weekend....there are several different chapters of the Mountaineers and they do this stuff regularly.  Secondly...the Everett Mountaineers is one of the "smaller" chapters.  Thanks for the warning, though. Some of those Mounties are O.K., but I hope that the naughty few will dump their "we have the rock reserved for the day/weekend" attitude, will share the space if others choose to come, will be polite and make sure their garbage is gone afterwards.  - Dwayner  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleblebleb Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 That's bullshit CBS. The ropes are put up in the morning and the time they're left up exceeds the time somebody is actually being belayed by a whole lot. Â But this is easy to fix - just divy up into small groups, 2-4 people, each with one rope. Then you'd be pulling the ropes all the time. Â Do this for a couple of years and the mentality of "claiming a route" and the idea of being able to climb without a proficient leader in the party would both almost disappear. Â If the Everett Mounties are already doing this, more power to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North_by_Northwest Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 We pick up our own and any other trash we find. Â I pick up your trash every time I go out: new rappel slings left on trees and rocks where the terrain is third class and walkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 'tude  whatca mean??  i climb with 3 others on a very regular basis. they are all badass mofo's. and they post here.  whats your point? if it is semantics, you might what to take a step back and revaluate your attempts to troll me.  have a great weekend!   Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 dustin, Â i believe i answered your question. cc.commers were in a large group only during the evening. Â and on sunday at the pearly gates, there was like 10 of us, all leading and we even worked in a few non cc.ers into the mix. it was a lite airy atmospehere! unlike the "you will die, if you do this wrong" attitude you instill into the neophites. Â and you need to puncuate with a "?" is you are asking a question!! even my ghetto ass knows that! Â enjoy your weekend! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 cbs, Â you know it is easy to lump all your branches into one. i dont know what group is what, as i do not bother them. Â i just go back later and look for trash and pick it up. i always carry a bag in my pack for trash. Â good trash i have found in the icicle: Â 3 pairs of underwear on 3 seperate occasions. bout 34829657823456723456786527 beer can and bottles a few diapers a washing machine 2 tv countless shoes trask's brain. Â i think you all need to pick up all the trash you see. make it mandatory for your students to do so. Â have great weekend! Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 do your own whackin' erik whata perv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted April 25, 2003 Share Posted April 25, 2003 Just a brief story. A couple of weeks ago we walked up to the Manure Pile in the Valley and this guide had like a bazillion kids on ropes all over the place. He said "what are you guys gonna do?" and I told him. He wasn't in our way, but he said "just want you guys to know we'll work with you and let you climb through or whatever." Â I think that's all it takes, and nobody would be screaming bloody murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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