justification

[erik]

i will have to find links later.

 

but i would like to hear from some of the conservative folks about the patriot 2 act??

 

here is a link

 

what justifies this and the new system they are trying to push into airports where personal financial and other information keyholes individuals into 3 catagories. green, yellow and red.

 

are thee measures needed and why?

 

no spray or death rants.

 

thanks!

 

[allthumbs]

I have nothing to hide. Do you?

[erik]

what do you think??

 

i still do not see the reasoning to break down the document of all documents. the bill of rights.

 

is not what asscroft doing go against that and the reason this country was formed?

 

i am asking questions cause i want to know.

 

 

[allthumbs]

Relax. Nothing will come of it. Roll another one.

[Off_White]

It is strange that some get all breathless comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler, but are oddly oblivious to creeping fascism here at home. Bit by bit, like turning up the heat on a pot full of crabs, so the bulk of folks don't get alarmed until they're already cooked. I read an interesting article in Free Inquiry the other day (a secular humanist rag, for those unfamiliar or wanting to know their slant) that was based on a study of the primary historical fascist regimes. It offered a list of 14 common elements, a number of which are happening here these days. No, I won't list them now, this is Spray and people don't really want facts, and I'm not suggesting that the US is a fascist country, but trading freedom for a dubious security is not a good deal if you ask me.

[minx]

Ashcroft has been a scary figure since his confirmation. I will have to look rather hard to find the links but i recall a debate w/a conservative friend at the time. Even he was disturbed by Ashcrofts willingness to gloss over certain civil rights as it suits him. There are several specific instances he pointed out. I'll try and find them. We should all be disturbed by this man.

[allthumbs]

Again, relax. Bush will probably be out in 2004 and Ashcroft along with him. All together now, "WE ALL LIVE IN A YELLOW SUBMARINE".

[minx]

trask,

 

this is not the sort of thing about which we should relax. If this damn war goes well they probably won't be out in 2004. This sort of thing will continue. it's scary. i like my privacy.

 

~S

[allthumbs]

move to the north pole

[Fairweather]

I am against further versions of the patriot act. I don't want it used by a possible future left-wing/Democrat administration to surveil the free speech and internet chatter of me and my right-wing compatriots.

 

...perhaps if this new version had a 2009 sunset provision I could hop on board...

 

"Those that would sacrifice liberty for temporary personal safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." ---Benjamin Franklin

 

...That's where I stand, Erik.

 

It's Sunday and I'm eating cold pizza and drinking a Coke. Shouldn't I be outside doin' something?

[minx]

too much info i'm sure

 

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11904&c=206

http://www.counterpunch.org/norris1121.html

“Ann Beeson of the Civil Liberties Union, a long-time supporter of the 4th stated: "As of today, the attorney general can suspend the ordinary requirements of the 4th Amendment in order to listen to phone calls, read e-mails, and conduct secret searches of Americans' homes and offices." Those that are being monitored won't know it. So, in essence, there is no mechanism in place to challenge the surveillance. And currently, only the government can do that.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1120440.stm

“Mr Ashcroft's record as a senator helps explain why he is so controversial. The conservative Christian Coalition gave him a 100% rating for the year 2000, while the environmentalist League of Conservation Voters and the left-leaning National Organisation for Women each gave him a zero. “

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/12/opinion/meyer/main512021.shtml

http://dir.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/08/ashcroft/index.html

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=1060

search this site for plenty of info

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/06/inv.ashcroft.hearing/

“ Ashcroft flatly rejected criticism of the administration's policies, including President Bush's decision to allow the use of military tribunals to try non-U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism, the detention of hundreds of immigrants in connection with the terrorism probe, the "voluntary" questioning of thousands of men from mostly Middle Eastern countries, and eavesdropping between attorneys and their clients in terrorism cases. “

Glad he keeps an open mind

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/04/international/worldspecial/04DETA.html

“Since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the courts have made conflicting rulings on the legality of holding material witnesses without charging them. A federal judge in Manhattan, Shira A. Scheindlin, said such detentions were "an illegitimate use of the statute," but another ruling in the same court, by Chief Judge Michael B. Mukasey, said detaining witnesses to compel testimony was a legitimate investigative tool.

Attorney General John Ashcroft has defended the tactic, saying it is "vital to preventing, disrupting or delaying new attacks."

The Justice Department has not said how many Americans have been held without charges in terrorism investigations since Sept. 11. Civil liberties groups say they believe the number is about 20, though most are not American citizens. “

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1125669

“Marc Rotenberg, Epic's executive director, said there is now a mix of provisions in the area of electronic surveillance that, if taken together, "would allow more people in government to monitor more electronic communications of Americans for more reasons under a lower legal standard than is currently permitted under law".

"This new statutory authority would be broadly exercised in cases completely unrelated to terrorism," he added.

Rotenberg said that police could now use Carnivore, a system that monitors web communication going in and out of an internet service provider's network, to routinely capture click-stream data from internet users under the same standards that currently permit government access to telephone numbers. Another provision will make it easier to seize voicemail.

"The vast majority of legislative recommendations now being faxed around Washington create sweeping surveillance authority without any justification," Rotenberg said.

The House Judicial Committee heard testimony from Attorney General John Ashcroft in which he told Congress that current US law is not adequate to protect American citizens from terrorist threats and that, in technology areas, the law is particularly out of date.

He said the FBI needed additional surveillance and enforcement powers immediately. "The American people do not have the luxury of unlimited time in erecting the necessary defences to future terrorist acts," Ashcroft said. "It requires that we provide law enforcement with the tools necessary to identify, dismantle, disrupt and punish terrorist organisations before they strike again."

Although many congressmen said they support the proposal, a number expressed concerns over potential violations of constitutional rights in the proposals. “

US Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Patrick Leahy vowed to balance any new laws with the need to protect civil liberties. "If we let the Constitution get shredded, the terrorists win," he warned.

The American Civil Liberties Union said that several of Ashcroft's proposals were not objectionable, but it said many were excessive.

 

[allthumbs]

tmi

[fleblebleb]

Relax, then vote.

[pope]

erik said:

i will have to find links later.

 

but i would like to hear from some of the conservative folks about the patriot 2 act??

 

here is a link

 

what justifies this and the new system they are trying to push into airports where personal financial and other information keyholes individuals into 3 catagories. green, yellow and red.

 

are thee measures needed and why?

 

no spray or death rants.

 

thanks!

 

 

Not sure where I'm going to fit into the color classification. After a couple of years at the U, my dad started calling me a pinko.

 

Big Brother is watching!

 

Oh well, after we vote the liberals back in power, the easy access to formally private information should make it easy when Uncle Sam decides to further amend the Constitution and rescind the right to bear arms.

[allthumbs]

pope said:

when Uncle Sam decides to further amend the Constitution and rescind the right to bear arms.

not in three lifetimes my friend

[Fence_Sitter]

Whitehead said his main concern was that the act proposes to strip U.S. citizens of their citizenship if they belong to or even support a designated foreign terrorist organization.

 

that is their main concern!?! i am more than willing to let that one slide... granted it leaves room for them to declare 'other' goups terrorist groups...but as is...do you reallly want to give citizenship to a person that wnats to kill you and end your way of life...and moreover...do you think other countries allow this sort of thing? in germany, the nazi party was outlawed...and now you hippies are all supporting it like is the model nation...but if the U.S.A. does it...blow the whistle! you just like to beat up on the red white and blue because it is popular to do so...i am living in europe (even eastern eaurope) and they say the same thing about you pansies...they say that you are just taking cues from france and tyring to fit in and be global...so dont know the U.S. and support a country that is doing the same thing as we speak...

[Scott_J]

I've lost friends in Viet Nam, a uncle in WWII in the tank corps with Old Blood and Guts, and a disabled great uncle from WWI(I actuall got to meet this dude and listen to him talk about gassing in the trenches) This is my mood today.

If there were a patriotic smiley on the board I'd use it.

 

OUR FLAG

A protest raged on a courthouse lawn, round a makeshift stage they

charged on. Fifteen hundred or more they say, had come to burn the Flag

that day.

 

A boy held up the folded Flag, cursed it and called it a dirty rag. A

man pushed through the angry crowd, with an old gun shouldered proud.

 

His uniform jacket was old and tight, he had polished each button, shiny

and bright. He crossed the stage with military grace, until he and the

boy stood face to face.

 

Then the old man broke the silence.

 

"Freedom of speech, is worth dying for, Good men are gone, they live no

more. All so you can stand on this courthouse lawn, and ramble on from

dusk to dawn.

 

But before the Flag gets burned today, this old veteran is going to have

his say.

 

My father died on a foreign shore, in a war they said would end all

wars. Tommy and I weren't even full grown, before we fought in a war of

our own. Tommy died on Iwo Jima's beach, in the shadow of a hill he

couldn't reach.

 

Where five good men raised this Flag so high, that the whole world could

see it fly.

 

I got this bum leg that I still drag, fighting for this same old Flag.

 

There's but one shot in this old gun, so now it's time to decide which

one.

 

Which one of you will follow our lead, to stand and die for what you

believe?"

 

The boy who had called it a dirty rag, handed the veteran the folded

Flag.

 

The crowd got quiet as they walked away, to talk about what they heard

that day.

 

So the battle for the Flag this day was won, by a loyal veteran with a

single gun. Who for one last time, had to show to some, That these

colors will never, never run.

 

It is the veteran, not the preacher, who has given us freedom of

religion.

 

It is the veteran, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the

press.

 

It is the veteran, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

 

It is the veteran, not the campus organizer, who has given us freedom to

assemble.

 

It is the veteran, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair

trial.

 

It is the veteran, not the politician, Who has given us the right to

vote.

 

It is the veteran, who salutes the Flag, who serves under the Flag,

whose coffin is draped by the Flag.

 

Don't know who wrote this but it sure fits my mood right now.

 

 

[Sphinx]

[glen]

True, veterans in many wars have done things and made sacrifices that our society owes them a great debt for. There is no arguing that, but we should be wary of using that as a Trump card in discussion. Perhaps we should listen to what General Norman Schwartkopf (spelling wrong, I know) said before the war when he said that Gulf II would be a bad idea (amongst others, it was in the press and is well documented). He's certainly in the know, and a military man.

 

The story above is basically a different way of saying that if you oppose the war, you are not a patriot. That is total bullshit. Being a patriot is about doing what is right for your country, not rallying around a flag in the name of one point of view. There are times for war and there are times when one is not justified. Just because bullets are flying does not imply that support should be given unconditionally. If that were the case, self-determination and freedom would truly be out the door.

 

[Peter_Puget]

[erik]

nice pic pete...

 

but still i do not see how or why we should change our constittuon or bill of rights so that we may in theory catch people like these fucks....

 

 

[erik]

ANOTHER THING PETE...

 

ISNT THIS WHOLE DESTRYING OF THE WAY OF LIFE IN AMERICA OSAMA'S GOAL??

 

SO IN ESSENCE ASSCROFT IS GOING FORWARD WITH THEIR DREAM...

 

IS ASSCROFT A TERRORIST?

 

 

[JoshK]

erik said:

nice pic pete...

 

but still i do not see how or why we should change our constittuon or bill of rights so that we may in theory catch people like these fucks....

 

 

These fucks attack the very things that make our country what it is. Changing our constitution and bill of rights plays into their hands, and isn't going to get us any further along with catching them. Asscroft is a moron and we are better off without him and his racist self.

[TimL]

WWI & II are a much different situation then the war we are fighting today. Your song has little meaning in the terms of the Iraq War. Its not a patriotic war. Its a war for black colored blood pumped from the deserts of Iraq. If there is a modern day Hitler I think Bush would fit into the category. The only difference is he's killing our young men as well as the Iraq people.

[Dru]