Why does ice form?

cracked · February 14, 2003

For any atmospheric scientists out there: why is it that in Washington ice forms at very low elevations (eg Snoqualmie), but in Oregon ice never forms (as far as I know)? I assume that up here ice forms from snow-melt refreezing at night, but why would this happen only in Washington. Any opinions?

klenke · February 14, 2003

Oh, you're asking simply for opinions?

Well...I think it's because Washington is way cooler than Oregon can ever hope to be.

As for a theory from this weatherman's son, I have none. Are you sure it's really probable there is no ice in Oregon? Seems like your statement is too general. I cannot see any reason why Washington would have better conditions for ice formation other than it might have a greater snowpack with which to make ice from. But that doesn't really seem to be an adequate reason for the supposed dearth of ice in Oregon. It seems like the optimum elevation for ice formation in Oregon would just be a little higher up in the mountains than that of Washington.

catbirdseat · February 14, 2003

I should think that at lower latitudes you'd get ice but at higher elevations. If there are fewer mountains of the appropriate elevation, or if access is poor that would explain the lack of ice. Mt Hood get's good alpine ice, but I assume you are talking about water ice.

JoshK · February 14, 2003

It also seems to me that terrain has a lot to do with ice formation. This is completely guesswork, I am only putting together pieces of what I have seen various places, but it seems that in the real ice meccas (such as cdn rockies, etc.) you have a lot more bowls, falling off into flat faces. the cascades tend to me more jagged and consisting of gullies, etc. Interestingly enough, if you look at the topo for drury falls, it's a steep wall below a huge plateau, kind of what things seem to me to be like in the cdn rockies. Of course, on top of this, it's a lot colder there for longer periods. Thoughts?

Billy · February 14, 2003

Apparent lack of ice in Oregon?

I don't think so, Cracked and Klenke, you just have to know where to look.

Hint: its not all on Mt Hood.

Down there in hick country, Oregon climbers have been harvesting for awhile. Perhaps the Starbucks is getting to you?

JoshK · February 14, 2003

Neither one of them was saying no ice formed in Oregon...they were both asking since if there is water ice in Oregon, it's obviously not well publicised.

fleblebleb · February 14, 2003

The burliest PNW ice routes I only ever saw photos of are in Oregon. Ask Wayne, he'll be happy to share.

cracked · February 14, 2003

What I mean, is, for example, there are all these little smears in Great Scott bowl, obviously formed by meltwater (what else?), just on a little hillside, no big bowl above or anything. I have never seen anything like it in Oregon, and I have never heard of any water ice in Oregon other than the Columbia River Gorge when the planets are favorably aligned.

klenke · February 14, 2003

Josh added a good point: terrain.

As a whole, the Washington Cascades (particularly the North Cascades) are a lot more rugged than the Oregon Cascades (excluding the volcanoes down there). The type of ice we all like to climb on forms on highly inclined surfaces, which are more prevalent in the North Cascades of Washington. Add to this Josh's point about basins containing a proportionately greater amount of snow with which to run off through a constriction at the outflow of said basin, more ice can form (like over a waterfall). There also probably more alpine waterfalls in Washington due to the more rugged terrain. Lastly, if the weather in Washington creates more moisture than Oregon, then there is more water with which to form ice. All these things conspire to make more ice in Washington than Oregon. All this is conjecture in need of verification.

Hmmm? This sounds like a Ph.D. dissertation for an atmospheric scientist.

JoshK · February 14, 2003

I'd also be willing to be there is lots of ice in the PNW that forms somewhat consistenly higher in the alpine that nobody has even seen before. Sure, winter climbing is getting more popular, but there are plenty of places deep in the backcountry that I bet a human being hasn't seen in the winter before, let alone a human actually *looking* for ice.

klenke · February 14, 2003

Yeah, and if we search hard enough, we may find Merlin himself entombed in a block of Washington ice. I'm sure before hacking him out, we climbers would climb the block at least six different ways first. No sense wasting good ice.

nolanr · February 14, 2003

I don't know about more rain in WA than OR. Ever been there? I'm pretty sure it rains more in the Willamette Valley than the Puget Sound basin. It rains there A LOT, and down there it rains hard, it doesn't mess around w/ that light misty stuff like we get up here often.

icegirl · February 14, 2003

because it wants to...

(sorry, could not resist...)

JoshK · February 14, 2003

The rainiest alpine areas in the PNW (BC, WA, OR):

1.)Mt. Olympus

2.)Hood area and rainer area (pretty much tied)

3.)Darrington area mountains

erik · February 14, 2003

good info here!!

MtnHigh · February 14, 2003

Yup, ther aint no ice down ear in Orrgon.

klenke · February 14, 2003

Hey, that's a great website, Erik.

It's great for defining the microscopic mechanisms of ice climb formation, but it does not address the geographical influences of ice-climb formation. In particular, it doesn't address Cracked's initial question.

glen · February 14, 2003

Why doesn't good ice form at equivalent elevations in southern california? Because it is at a lower latitude and warmer (more direct solar radiation). IN general, the further north you go, the colder it is at a given elevation. Another way of thinking of this, is that the freezing level (in elevation) drops at you go north. So, if you have lower elevations (generally true for mean elevation in southern cascades) at lower latitudes, it should be warmer. For example, even though they are at similar latitudes, there is good ice in lee vining canyon at 7500' but not in bishop at 4,000' in CA. In WA, ice flows regularly form at alpental at 3,000'. On a longer time scale, this is referred to as the ELA (equilibrium line altitude), or the elevation at which the mean annual temperature is 0*C.

Latitudinal effects

Local effects? of course. If there are consistent easterly winds bringing in cold air, you can get cold temperatures locally that will help freeze those flows. How much maritime influence is there (warm air from ocean)? Shady, or sunny? ... .... ...

The occurence of bowls in the rockies helping form ice is a bit of a circular argument as many of those features are relict glacial features.

Edited February 14, 2003 by glen

fern · February 14, 2003

I read all the above but I don't really get what the question is?? Ice forms when water is cooled below the freezing point ... that's why. Do you mean why do ice-climbs form? Generally there are two types of water ice climbs: waterfalls, and seeps. Waterfall and gully lines are pretty obvious in the unfrozen season, there is water running down a steep drainage. Seeps may only appear when they freeze because they don't require a really obvious drainage system. You get seeps for example where there is a perched water table or a spring on a cliff, or a crack that oozes water. Even pretty low volume flows can build thick ice, sometimes thicker than a waterfall with a larger water supply because the water velocity is lower so there is less kinetic energy and friction in the system. Maybe Oregon doesn't get this stuff so much because the drainage is good and the water just runs away underground? Or the air is dry enough that seeping moisture is evaporated at an equal rate to the supply so it never builds to freeze? I dunno, like I say I don't really understand the question and I don't know the areas that have been mentioned.

freeclimb9 · February 14, 2003

Hey, that's a great website, Erik.
It's great for defining the microscopic mechanisms of ice climb formation, but it does not address the geographical influences of ice-climb formation. In particular, it doesn't address Cracked's initial question.

Glad you like www.iceclimb.com

Cracked's initial question was phrased strangely.

For any atmospheric scientists out there: why is it that in Washington ice forms at very low elevations (eg Snoqualmie), but in Oregon ice never forms (as far as I know)? I assume that up here ice forms from snow-melt refreezing at night, but why would this happen only in Washington. Any opinions?

Low elevation ice-climb formation doesn't happen solely in Washington state. All that is needed to form ice is below freezing temps and a water source (it doesn't even have to be liquid. Snow can be sintered into ice). That's the extent of "geographical influences". The specifics of what forms a particular ice-climb can be varied. All of the mechanisms listed on www.iceclimb.com/science.html can come into play, or only one. And that can vary week to week and season to season for an iceclimb. I provided the information on the science.html page so that a climber can evaluate the ice in front of his eyes. Is it anchor ice, or icicles, etc.?

And ice does form in Oregon.

cracked · February 14, 2003

Ice does form in Oregon, but not nearly as widespread as in Washington. If snowmelt produces water ice, why have I never seen any ice in the Oregon backcountry? And WHERE does ice form in Oregon? I have never seen any, but that's just me. Maybe I should look harder...

freeclimb9 · February 14, 2003

Consider the underlying substrate's ability to absorb water. That may resolve your quandry.

iain · February 14, 2003

Alex · February 15, 2003

Last I checked, the Blues, Wallowas, Steens Mnt, the Eagle Cap were all in Oregon. Go to the cold! Don't wait for Multnomah Falls to form. I worked out of LaGrande, Joseph, John Day, and Bly for a year, and there is alot of good stuff out there and potential to explore. There are a few members on this board who reside in Enterprise/Joseph, and other points East that might give you some hints too, but go to the cold!!